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thelion
04-27-2006, 01:46 PM
Is there life after the K2 9800? Are there any hints about a new consumer statement speaker from JBL? The all new Project Array line seems not to be targeted as "successor" of the K2 at the top end. Are 435BE and 045BE still the "best" drivers JBL has to offer?

Take a wild guess - when will we see a new "statement product" from JBL succeeding the K2 9800(SE).

4313B
04-27-2006, 02:40 PM
I have no idea what you are talking about.....





Are 435BE and 045BE still the "best" drivers JBL has to offer?Yes.....

thelion
04-27-2006, 04:04 PM
[quote=Giskard]I have no idea what you are talking about.....


You really want me to underestimate your knowledge...

Take a wild guess, then. Please.

hapy._.face
04-27-2006, 04:06 PM
He's pleading the 5th. He knows. ;)

I bet it's named after a mountain in Asia, though. What's left? We can probably guess the name by deductive reasoning...:hmm:

Ian Mackenzie
04-27-2006, 05:14 PM
Travis,

Do you man the 5th amendment?

hapy._.face
04-27-2006, 05:19 PM
Travis,

Do you man the 5th amendment?

Yes. You're an Aussie and you already know more than most Americans. ;)

An amendment to the Constitution of the United States, ratified in 1791, that deals with the rights of accused criminals by providing for due process of law, forbidding double jeopardy, and stating that no person may be forced to testify as a witness against himself or herself.

Ian Mackenzie
04-27-2006, 05:33 PM
I picked up a copy in Washington DC. I must frame it.

But I think you just pissed off the whole of North America without realising it..:blink: , blame the Aussie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

hapy._.face
04-27-2006, 05:37 PM
...I think you just pissed off the whole of North America without realising it..:blink: , blame the Aussie.


I blame the state of our public schools- we try, but with the resources, we can do much better.

Can you also identify our flag and pick us out on a globe? Congrats- here's an official HS diploma. :(

Ian Mackenzie
04-27-2006, 05:41 PM
Are you kidding.

I got one hanging beside my 4345's.

Ian

doodlebug
04-27-2006, 05:48 PM
I'm not going to take the bait but will comment that, as a former product manager, I can tell you there is a market out there for $6-digit speaker and associated electronics.

I believe McIntosh is discovering this with their 'statement' line of preamps/amps/speakers. This opinion from my discussions with them at one of their roadshow events highlighting that line. Living around here in Silicon Valley, I know there are folks who will pay dearly for the brand name on the assumption that the vendor will do a good-enough job of integrating all the piece parts so this level of well-heeled customers don't have to.

JBL, however, will need to develop a better distribution channel for a product line to compete with folks like Linn and McIntosh for the same wallet - and JBL comes up short on branded electronics right now, although Harmon does have them. I doubt these product lines talk with each other well enough to see the opportunity, a common problem.

So, I don't think the question here was posed well enough. It should be, "Does JBL have the ability and mind set to launch a stratospheric product line and finance the building of the channel/dealers to get them to market?". Better yet, "Does JBL want to?"

Cheers,

David


Is there life after the K2 9800? Are there any hints about a new consumer statement speaker from JBL? The all new Project Array line seems not to be targeted as "successor" of the K2 at the top end. Are 435BE and 045BE still the "best" drivers JBL has to offer?

Take a wild guess - when will we see a new "statement product" from JBL succeeding the K2 9800(SE).

hapy._.face
04-27-2006, 06:03 PM
doodlebug-

JBL is doin' jus fine in Europe and especially Asia. The statement speakers they make for the Asian market are made into posters so people can pleasure themselves before saying good night.

doodlebug
04-27-2006, 06:28 PM
:banghead: . I really did and I was clearly thinking of the US market when I wrote that. Still it points out that, for whatever reason, JBL has chosen not to engage the US market in this way. I really do wonder why.

Good point, though, and thanks for reminding me.

Cheers,

David



doodlebug-

JBL is doin' jus fine in Europe and especially Asia. The statement speakers they make for the Asian market are made into posters so people can pleasure themselves before saying good night.

hapy._.face
04-28-2006, 06:46 AM
Still it points out that, for whatever reason, JBL has chosen not to engage the US market in this way. I really do wonder why.


Hi doodlebug,

Remember, HK does 'engage us'. Think of all the Harmon owned brands. We choose by our spending habits. The JBL badge (for example) adorns boat loads of car audio, computer desktop speakers, and bookshelf speakers, and low-mid fi speakers- That's what Americans buy.

Consider this- how many Americans would buy a...say... $7,000.00 pair of loudspeakers (for example)? Of that group, how many are true audiophiles and how many are posers with money to burn? Of those camps- how many would buy $7,000.00 speakers if they had a JBL logo on them? Now consider a $12,000.00 JBL loudspeaker system. See what I mean? Few Americans even want a JBL statement speaker- let alone pay the price.

OTOH, the Array is slowly becoming available. A pair of those in a zebra wood finish would make a 'statement' in any living room. ;)

Shane Shuster
04-28-2006, 11:27 AM
OTOH, the Array is slowly becoming available. A pair of those in a zebra wood finish would make a 'statement' in any living room. ;)
I wish they would have made a Array 1800. Have the horn as wide as the bass bin and able to go down to around 300hz. I know the tooling to make such a speaker would be too expensive compaired to the 10 pairs they would sell in North America.

Anyone think we will see a horn loaded 60th ann. speaker. An old meets new halfway design? Or are the days done for big horns.

edgewound
04-28-2006, 11:42 AM
There are more millionaires in the US now than ever. I would think that the geniuses in Harman's marketing dept...all armed with their MBA's....well, that's what Harman wants, anyway...are well versed in applying statistical analysis to cultivate this growing demographic.

Or...it could be they're on the hunt for the next highest paying offer, and really don't care about the company's future. I'll bet the latter. I've seen them at trade shows....and we've heard the experiences with Consumer customer service.

Mr. Widget
04-28-2006, 01:33 PM
The marketing geniuses at Harman know that well to do Americans would rather buy a $10K wristwatch than a $10K pair of JBLs...


Widget

briang
04-28-2006, 01:42 PM
The marketing geniuses at Harman know that well to do Americans would rather buy a $10K wristwatch than a $10K pair of JBLs...


Widget Ja, it is hard to carry around a louspeaker to make a wealty and taste statement.;)

Maron Horonzakz
04-28-2006, 02:55 PM
I wonder what kind of watch the geniuses at Harmon wear?;)

edgewound
04-28-2006, 03:05 PM
The marketing geniuses at Harman know that well to do Americans would rather buy a $10K wristwatch than a $10K pair of JBLs...


Widget

That point could be taken further. Maybe $10K is not expensive enough for the very wealthy. There are many in the upper stratosphere of wealth that won't purchase something just because it isn't priced high enough and don't want to be outdone by their peers at the club.

Volkswagon owns Porsche and Audi...and Bugatti, with a $1.4 million dollar car the Veyron(sp?). DaimlerChrysler owns Mercedes-Benz.

Would a Mercedes owner switch to a Chrysler 300C? Doubtful, as it's known as the "poor man's Bentley". Would a Chrysler owner step up to a Mercedes or BMW or Porsche? Probably in time, if they could afford it. I think somewhere along the line JBL Consumer has lost their core audience by taking them for granted. Why is there so much interest in JBL vintage product? The well-heeled buyer will look for some sort of top-of-the mountain product to buy...and pay handsomely for it. JBL has the engineering talent and resources to make that product and become an upper eschelon brand once again in a generation. The problem is overcoming the current "Best Buy" image. Maybe that's what they are trying to do with Revel....but they certainly did a good job of tarnishing the JBL brand name, and it will take lots of polishing to get the brand back into boutique status again.

Look at Wilson Audio...$200,000+ speakers and they don't even manufacture their own drivers. Harman has all the tools at their disposal to covet the JBL brand. But maybe the shareholder's won't hear of it. That would be sad.

moldyoldy
04-28-2006, 04:10 PM
Do ANY of the "statement" brands beside JBL actually make their own drivers? (Or networks, cabs,.......)

hapy._.face
04-28-2006, 04:11 PM
Edge,

I agree.

I think few Americans would even consider spending big bucks on a statement speaker with a JBL badge. Generally speaking- those with that type of disposable income will try to find the most obscure brands to imply exclusivity. JBL obviously has an excellent grasp on this- that's why the best is marketed overseas (where the reverse is true).

Mr. Widget
04-28-2006, 06:30 PM
Do ANY of the "statement" brands beside JBL actually make their own drivers? (Or networks, cabs,.......)Sure.

Focal
B+W
Dynaudio
Magnepan
Martin Logan
Sound Labs

I am sure there are many more... that was just a quick list... the statement speakers from all of them are absolutely fantastic... and are in the Rolex + price range.


Widget

Titanium Dome
04-28-2006, 08:06 PM
Sure.

Focal
B+W
Dynaudio
Magnepan
Martin Logan
Sound Labs

I am sure there are many more... that was just a quick list... the statement speakers from all of them are absolutely fantastic... and are in the Rolex + price range.


Widget

I've heard all of those brands except for Focal, and was duly impressed, although I usually auditioned the second tier lines (usually over $10k/pair under $20k/pair) rather than the top. They were more readily available than higher end JBL stuff and usually more physically attractive.

If JBL could figure out what motivated me to do the protracted search I did to find and purchase the whole Performance Series and then some, they might have a clue as to how to entice more middle class Americans to buy higher up the line.

I don't think it's necessary to sell the most expensive speakers to the most wealthy buyers, but I do think it's necessary to get affluent consumers to "upsell" within the brand. Sadly, too many folks get the entry level JBLs (like Northridge E Series), then upgrade to another brand, thinking that Northridge E series IS the JBL line.

Similarly, many people thought the L100 was the JBL line in its time, and, as much as I revere my own L100s, that perception hinders JBL's reputation to this day.

Shane Shuster
04-28-2006, 10:37 PM
If JBL could figure out what motivated me to do the protracted search I did to find and purchase the whole Performance Series and then some, they might have a clue as to how to entice more middle class Americans to buy higher up the line.
this day.
Thats the real problem with JBL's product line. The top 2 tiers are overpriced compaired to other brands. I toy with the idea of saving up for the 1400 Array but then start thinking I can get a pair of Tannoy Glenairs, (2) 4645c for subs and a decent amp for the same money.

Jbl has a good selection of cone speakers. They almost need a line of speakers like the 4338 in a home version for around 6,000.

MJC
05-06-2006, 08:56 AM
Sadly, too many folks get the entry level JBLs (like Northridge E Series), then upgrade to another brand, thinking that Northridge E series IS the JBL line.

A couple of months ago a poster over at AVS didn't have a clue that there were high end JBLs until I posted a llink for the K2s.
The problem as I see it, is that at one end there is JBLs at BB and then there is Synthesis. But most, if not all, Synthesis dealers don't have showrooms so people can audition systems like the PS or Array or K2. The only Synthesis dealer around here only has a small office with not even one room that is big enough to setup any system. He dosen't even have a sign on the front of his building!

Rudy Kleimann
05-06-2006, 12:22 PM
Edge,

I think few Americans would even consider spending big bucks on a statement speaker with a JBL badge. Generally speaking- those with that type of disposable income will try to find the most obscure brands to imply exclusivity. JBL obviously has an excellent grasp on this- that's why the best is marketed overseas (where the reverse is true).

People buy Rolex watches- very expensive ones, and far from exclusive. However, Rolex never "cheesed out" their line like JBL did.

You can't "unring the bell".It will take a lot of time and work to overcome this JBL-"value line" image. Almost like starting a new company from scratch and launching a penetrating a premium (but not quite). The first thing it takes is a change in attitude at the corporate and stockholder levels. The formula is there- just read Stereophile, etc. Harmon could certainly do it with JBL easier than anyone else.

"Just Do It" as Nike ads say.;)

Rudy Kleimann
05-06-2006, 01:20 PM
Let me try one more time...

According to JBL they are hitting all the desired markets right on target. If it doesn't exist, it doesn't need to exist.
That's the collective opinion of JBL/Harman's Marketing Group.:blah:

As my Dad always says:

"Opinions are like assholes- everybody has one."

And I have added:

"And everybody is one at one time or another".

(Donning Flame Jacket):duck:

Not trying to stir the pot here- really!

Just pointing out the great thing about the good ol' U.S. of A. Free to think what we want and do what we want, as long as nobody is harmed by it.:D

Fact is, though, that as many people recognize JBL at concerts and in Best Buy, very few know there are other JBL product lines between these two extremes. That is, I think, what is being pointed out in this thread.

I have been an Audiophile since I was 15 (I'm 45 now), and have been in many, many Audio shops from Hi-Fi to High-end to Pro Dealerships. Subscribed to many Audio mags for years; read them from cover to cover. Spent more on Audio than I care to admit. Yet, I have become more aware of more JBL product lines at this website than in all my previous Audiophile excursions.

johnaec
05-06-2006, 02:35 PM
It will take a lot of time and work to overcome this JBL-"value line" image.So it sounds like you're complaining more about JBL's marketing rather than the fact nice JBL's, (like the Performance series), are available above the Best Buy "value" line but still below the K2 and Pro stuff, correct? If so, while the varied speakers are out there, I do agree JBL could do a little more marketing, unless JBL is already selling the quantities it wants.

John

Titanium Dome
05-06-2006, 03:56 PM
Widget points out an important element of the American consumer experience, and that is the very real practice of conspicuous consumption. It's important for people to know what you have because that is a socio-econimic indicator that no one can deny.

This indicator is critical because it places you in the visible socio-economic fantasy while denying your socio-economic reality.

A number of my younger employees are single, mid-20s college graduates who come form very poor families. Plus, they are not getting rich working in the nonprofit world.

Fantasy: Every single one drives a new car or truck that is much more prestigious than mine. Everyone has much nicer clothes than I do, and their clothes are constantly replaced with newer stuff. (Most of my pants are 10 years old, at least.) Their watch bands are gold, or silver, or platinum, while mine is plastic. Their "bling" is real silver or gold. I don't have bling.

They eat at nice restaurants, go to concerts and sporting events, take trips, and the list goes on: all out in plain sight of their peers. They're all doing much better than their familes. At least that's the conspicuous consumption their peers see.

Reality: most of them still live at home; their parents feed them, pay the utility bills, buy their car insurance, etc.; and their stereos and TVs suck.

None of them are going to buy 10k JBLs; in fact they're not even thinking about it. There's no need since they don't want anyone coming over to their parents' house to see how they live. However, if they could get a 10k watch that everyone could see, they'd buy it in a minute.

--------------------------

A test:

Since we're supporters and admirers of JBL, how many of us have spent $5k on brand new JBL speakers in the past five years? How about $10k? Anyone spent $20k?

If the $10k speakers were easier to find, would that have induced any of us to spend that kind of money?

:hmm: Hmm. A new thread is in order.

Shane Shuster
05-06-2006, 07:26 PM
None of them are going to buy 10k JBLs; in fact they're not even thinking about it. There's no need since they don't want anyone coming over to their parents' house to see how they live. However, if they could get a 10k watch that everyone could see, they'd buy it in a minute.
I think you are off base here. They don't buy 10k speakers because they are not audio hobbyists. They buy vintage Colt six-shooters or a Harley or whatever they are into. It doesn't have that much to do with what others think.

Mr. Widget
05-06-2006, 07:42 PM
Widget points out an important element of the American consumer experience, and that is the very real practice of conspicuous consumption.... Actually I was thinking of the purchase of a Rolex more in Shane's direction. More middle aged men would rather buy a killer set of golf clubs or a cool watch... some to show off and others because they genuinely like the stuff.

We're mostly just the AV geeks from high school... we are into this stuff... normal people aren't. For most people audio and video gear is a tool to access the movies or music that they are into... we take it much further... JBL is marketing to the greatest number of folks... in general that's too bad for us, but it certainly isn't dumb. Luckily for us there is a market in Asia (more AV geeks I guess) and there are some very talented designers and engineers at JBL that share our passion.


Widget

Don C
05-06-2006, 08:32 PM
I think that it's too soon to replace the K2 S9800. They should let it stay on the market for a while, give it a chance to get a reputation.

Mr. Widget
05-06-2006, 08:48 PM
I think that it's too soon to replace the K2 S9800. They should let it stay on the market for a while, give it a chance to get a reputation.What makes you think they won't continue to give them a chance? They have been available for several years... but I haven't heard any rumors about them being taken out of the lineup.

...but then nobody tells me nothing.:(

Widget

Don C
05-06-2006, 09:18 PM
I don't have any information about that, just saying that I think about this thread topic. It's too soon.

mech986
05-07-2006, 01:47 AM
Volkswagon owns Porsche and Audi...and Bugatti, with a $1.4 million dollar car the Veyron(sp?). DaimlerChrysler owns Mercedes-Benz.

Hi Edgewound,

Just to clarify, Volkswagen doesn't own Porsche, although it has been a very big and important supplier and development partner. Actually, Porsche has just taken out a 20% stake in Volkswagen to prevent any specific takeover threat from materializing.

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?newsID=4033

The Porsche family has had a lot of influence at Volkswagen (Ferdinand Piech, a Porsche grandson, used to be CEO) and they continue to work together on many different platform designs and parts supply.

Porsche has been and is determined to stay an independent automobile company. Over the past 3 years, it also has been the most profitable one as well. (for its size, I think Toyota is the most profitable from a total revenue standpoint).

Regards,

Bart
JBL and Porschephile

hapy._.face
05-07-2006, 03:23 AM
Audi=VW, btw




I still stick to my original statement: few americans would even think about spending big bucks on a speaker with a JBL badge. I'm not saying NO American would buy- only 'few'. Not enough for HK to push it harder here. Those guys are super smart; If they thought enough people would buy the more expensive stuff here- K2's would be everywhere. I think they are hitting the market like they should- and the potential market for lots of K2's in the USA simply doesn't exist. period. No speculation or wild guessing about it.

Ducatista47
05-07-2006, 07:46 AM
More middle aged men would rather buy a killer set of golf clubs or a cool watch... some to show off and others because they genuinely like the stuff.

We're mostly just the AV geeks from high school... we are into this stuff... normal people aren't. For most people audio and video gear is a tool to access the movies or music that they are into... we take it much further...


Widget
I agree as far as it goes, probably a good description of many members. I think many audiophiles and lovers of great sound come from other roots, and I think my own is common. While I was not pushing the projector from classroom to classroom in Junior High School, one of my best friends was.

He, my Father and I were into electronics and audio. I'm the son of a 1950's DIY Man and we had the required basement workshop and junk parts room. (We could look at the latest Popular Science and build a theremin for $20, because we had all that stuff around.:D) That, however, is not what got me into sound.

It was love of music. My "background" was an enabler to my addiction, but wanting to hear my music better was and is the main thing. When I was in grammar school, I was "requested" to turn down my record player when it was at max volume playing Beethoven 78's. When I got older I realized it was the horrible sound, not the volume, my Dad couldn't stand. I'm still improving my "record player."

I consider my addiction a product of three things: music loving, early exposure to DIY and all its possibilities, and genetics.

Why genetics? Look at the ratio of males to females who care about or can even hear good vs not good sound. Don't tell me there isn't a gene for this pursuit.;) Maybe JBL should plunder the human genome database, find it, airborne a virus that creates it and infect drop-ins in their dealer's showrooms.

Great thoughts, Widget, as usual.

Clark in Peoria

Titanium Dome
05-07-2006, 08:12 AM
(snip)

We're mostly just the AV geeks from high school... we are into this stuff... normal people aren't. (snip)


Widget

Just because I was the president of the AV club in high school does not mean that I was...or I am...

Oh, okay, I resemble that remark. :yes:



OTOH, I do invite guests over (in limited quantities so I can get their cars off the street) for movie and a pizza night just to show off my JBL, Seleco, and Fosgate gear. Sure, they're not into it like I am, but it's the only way I can show off my own geeky brand of conspicuous consumption.

"My gosh, look at those speakers. Are those your amps? Wow. Look at that projector!"

And a geek smiles. :bouncy:

oznob
05-07-2006, 08:45 AM
Just because I was the president of the AV club in high school does not mean that I was...or I am...

Oh, okay, I resemble that remark. :yes:



OTOH, I do invite guests over (in limited quantities so I can get their cars off the street) for movie and a pizza night just to show off my JBL, Seleco, and Fosgate gear. Sure, they're not into it like I am, but it's the only way I can show off my own geeky brand of conspicuous consumption.

"My gosh, look at those speakers. Are those your amps? Wow. Look at that projector!"

And a geek smiles. :bouncy:

OK, so maybe I was an AV geek until about 16! Then came Led Zep! Grew my hair long, pulled out my old drums and got into a Rock Band! GEEK NO MORE! We got more action than any Jock! Move ahead 30 years, back to AV geek! I guess I've come full circle! :band:

Rudy Kleimann
05-07-2006, 09:24 AM
So it sounds like you're complaining more about JBL's marketing rather than the fact nice JBL's, (like the Performance series), are available above the Best Buy "value" line but still below the K2 and Pro stuff, correct? If so, while the varied speakers are out there, I do agree JBL could do a little more marketing, unless JBL is already selling the quantities it wants.

John

My point Exactly.

A lack of advertising exposure and stocking dealers equals little or no market awareness, with a corresponding lack of sales to go with it. It fits their marketing research data :p .

Tell me, where in Houston, TX can I go to see or hear these JBL speakers? I have a better chance of hearing decent JBL's suitable for home use at Guitar Sinner than anywhere else I am aware of...

The last decent late model JBL setup I saw was at my neighbors' house: three LSR28P's. Sounded good, but wanting for better. Guess where he got them?

Ducatista47
05-07-2006, 09:42 AM
Rudy, there is so much truth in that. Then again, so many of us like classic monitors. Monitors were never for sale in consumer shops, I suppose, but maybe they should be. Problem is, nearfields are not as much fun as the products designed before they took over.:( Conversly, the large mains, IMHO, go nicely in the residential audio indulgence room.

Not only does JBL not market a 250Ti type/price point item any more, it is also out of the large, full range monitor business (everyone is, I think?). Same answer for both, no demand. Not enough of us around in the USA.

Clark In Monitor Heaven

MJC
05-07-2006, 11:17 AM
A test:
Since we're supporters and admirers of JBL, how many of us have spent $5k on brand new JBL speakers in the past five years? How about $10k? Anyone spent $20k?

If the $10k speakers were easier to find, would that have induced any of us to spend that kind of money?

:hmm: Hmm. A new thread is in order.
The only new JBLs I've bought since '79 are a PB12 and a pair of sub1500s.

The main reasons I built up a Stereo L212 system into an all L212 7-channel system are I already had an L212 system and there was nowhere I could walk into to hear a PS system.
I'm not about to buy a multi-channel system I can't audition first. There have been a few JBL systems I didn't like, like the L100s or their bookshelf speakers, back in the '70's. Or what they've got in BB now.
I certainly didn't spend $1500 on the original L212s, I bought in '79, w/o auditioning them first in a stereo shop, so why should I buy the PS w/o being able to audition them first?

Ducatista47
05-07-2006, 11:26 AM
s consumption.

"My gosh, look at those speakers. Are those your amps? Wow. Look at that projector!"

And a geek smiles. :bouncy:
Gosh, I never thought of we audio A lister wannabes as geeks. We are urbane, well read, informed gentlemen and ladies who retire to our study, pour a VSOP coniac into our snifter, don our smoking jackets, settle into our comfortable yet classic chairs and employ our carefully selected components to waft heavenly sounds to our golden ears.

Wait, sorry. I was having a Playboy Philosophy flashback. Man, I have to clean up this dump.

Clark, a native Chicagoan, back in Hefnerland.

Robh3606
05-07-2006, 01:59 PM
If you guys don't think Harmon knows what it's doing and the markets to aggressively market in you have not read the financial reports. They have had increased earns and sales for 5 years straight. With that kind of record I think we armchair corporate heads should give them the respect they deserve. Doesn't matter that we don't agree they obviously know what they are doing.

http://www.harman.com/A_REPORTS/2005/HII-2005.PDF

Rob:)

Mr. Widget
05-07-2006, 02:27 PM
You are right Rob... at least as long as we believe in a market driven economy... personally I have real issues with that, but that discussion can wait for another day.:D


Widget

MJC
05-07-2006, 03:35 PM
So they have 5 years of steady growth, I bet most of it is in Japan. While they expect those of us in the US to buy off their web site, never having the chance to hear what we might want to buy.
It would seem that only the largest of US cities might have any Synthesis dealers that actually have showrooms setup for auditions. And I wouldn't bet on that.

Robh3606
05-07-2006, 03:50 PM
So they have 5 years of steady growth, I bet most of it is in Japan. While they expect those of us in the US to buy off their web site, never having the chance to hear what we might want to buy.
It would seem that only the largest of US cities might have any Synthesis dealers that actually have showrooms setup for auditions. And I wouldn't bet on that.

Hey I don't like it anymore than you do. But it is what it is. Will they change their marketing here??? Don't know, but I hope so even though I don't have deep enough pockets to purchase their current SOTA. So it's moot point for me. I am still playing catch up with systems I couldn't afford 20 years ago. Maybe when I am 70 I can ebay some of the new stuff like a pair of 9800's or some of the new Arrays Series. That's fine I have some really good speakers to listen too until I can.

Rob:)

MJC
05-07-2006, 03:59 PM
Hey I don't like it anymore than you do. But it is what it is. Will they change their marketing here??? Don't know, but I hope so even though I don't have deep enough pockets to purchase their current SOTA. So it's moot point for me. I am still playing catch up with systems I couldn't afford 20 years ago. Maybe when I am 70 I can ebay some of the new stuff like a pair of 9800's or some of the new Arrays Series. That's fine I have some really good speakers to listen too until I can.

Rob:)

The prices of the K2, or Arrays are out of my league, but the PS wouldn't be too much of a stretch, depending on what they can really be had for, but only one or two hifi shops have ever had them, that I've heard of. And none anywhere near here.

hapy._.face
05-07-2006, 04:09 PM
It would seem that only the largest of US cities might have any Synthesis dealers that actually have showrooms setup for auditions. And I wouldn't bet on that.

Yep. You are so right:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110447&postcount=50

hapy._.face
05-07-2006, 04:12 PM
Hey I don't like it anymore than you do. But it is what it is. Will they change their marketing here??? Don't know, but I hope so even though I don't have deep enough pockets to purchase their current SOTA. So it's moot point for me. I am still playing catch up with systems I couldn't afford 20 years ago. Maybe when I am 70 I can ebay some of the new stuff like a pair of 9800's or some of the new Arrays Series. That's fine I have some really good speakers to listen too until I can.

Rob:)


IMO- you just NAILED the American market. I just think that post typifies what most everyone thinks. It's an interesting view- but it's one that I bet thousands of other people share with you. The reality of it is (as opposed to Japan) there is still a lot of vintage kick ass JBL around here for cheap. It MUST influence the buying habits on the newer stuff. It makes me wonder- If the Arrays were readily available and you (or anyone) was positively moved by them would you:

a. buy them?
a. buy them at the suggested retail price if no other "bargain" could be found?
c. shop around for something better (non JBL)?
d. try a DIY or older JBL system for less money?

Zilch
05-07-2006, 05:29 PM
d. try a DIY or older JBL system for less money?DIY, of course!!

Fact is, there's not much can't be approached (or even matched or bettered) DIY -- given the requisite knowledge, skill, and motivation to do it.

[It's the DIY creed.... :p ]

Rudy Kleimann
05-07-2006, 06:16 PM
Gosh, I never thought of we audio A lister wannabes as geeks. We are urbane, well read, informed gentlemen and ladies who retire to our study, pour a VSOP coniac into our snifter, don our smoking jackets, settle into our comfortable yet classic chairs and employ our carefully selected components to waft heavenly sounds to our golden ears.

Wait, sorry. I was having a Playboy Philosophy flashback. Man, I have to clean up this dump.

Clark, a native Chicagoan, back in Hefnerland.


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

What's wrong with the Playboy Philosophy? I don't know about the smoking jacket etc, but the philosophy sounds reasonable to me...

Shane Shuster
05-08-2006, 01:23 AM
The reality of it is (as opposed to Japan) there is still a lot of vintage kick ass JBL around here for cheap. It MUST influence the buying habits on the newer stuff.
There are alot of vintage JBL and Altec speakers in Japan. They buy the new JBLs because they are into overbuilt drivers and quality parts.

I think its the same reason audiophiles hate Bose. They build up big, complex systems and watch them get shrunk down to a wave radio in the commercial. They tell friends they have a great stereo, then the friend asks them if its a Bose and that pisses them off. How many guys will lay down 30k for a K-2 when they know Compaq monitors come with 5 dollar "JBL PRO" speakers attached to them.

JBL knows this, thats why they market to North America like they do.
Ipod docking stations get you a Ferrari, JBL ads in Stereophile will get you broke fast.

Ian Mackenzie
05-08-2006, 06:05 AM
Looking at the first post this another thread that has slipped right off the plate.

norealtalent
05-08-2006, 06:06 AM
DIY, of course!!

Fact is, there's not much can't be approached (or even matched or bettered) DIY -- given the requisite knowledge, skill, and motivation to do it.

[It's the DIY creed.... :p ]

Why mortgage my house for a pair of JBL's shipped here from Japan because there's not enough 6 figure paychecks in it to sell them here?Chances are, I won't be satisfied with them after I get them anyway. I'll take what I've learned from all my JBL's and put something equitable together for a fraction of the cost. DIY is what I've done since I was 8 years old, pulling golden nuggets from the McIntosh dumpster's a block away from my house. Motivation is the key, knowledge can be obtained with it, skill is a result of it, BUT nothing gets done without it.

Titanium Dome
05-08-2006, 07:47 AM
Looking at the first post this another thread that has slipped right off the plate.

Let me do a bit of contextual hocus pocus.

Every speaker JBL produces is a "statement speaker."

This is not the focus of the original post, but it is a kernel of truth.

When JBL introduces the Venue Series and closes out the Northridge E Series, a statement is being made. In this case, I think it's "We'll give you an updated look, we'll give you equal or better sound, and we'll give it to you for less." To me, that's a pretty good statement.

With the introduction of the Project Array Series, JBL is making another statement. The Studio L Series makes a different statement. When it comes out, the 60th Anniversary JBL will make its own unique statement.

The thing about the K2 S9800 is that it made its statement some time ago. Except for a minor tweak here and there, there's no news from that corner for some time. I'm not diminishing its impact; I'm merely pointing out that it's not the final statement from JBL in the arena of "statement speakers."

The overall statement is that JBL is alive, prosperous, and innovative. It's putting out a wide range of speakers, and it continues to develop new and exciting loudspeaker designs at every price point.:bouncy:

edgewound
05-08-2006, 10:22 AM
The annual report is quite illuminating from the staements made from the chiefs.

The big mover in increasing revenues on the whole is the Automotive OEM segment...and all things digital that go with it...not just music.

The recovery from a loss the previous year to a gain the following year for the domestic Consumer Division was due to the popularity of the iPod....most of which little gadgetry comes from China.

Maybe Harman is looking to cultivate the current popularity of Harleys with onboard "infotainment":blink: ...to a resurrection of JBL "legacy" quality to the living rooms of this affluent demographic....one can hope that the largest and richest demographic in the USA is not being ignored....but....one thing is for sure....

This isn't your grandfather's... or even your father's... JBL anymore.:(

Zilch
05-08-2006, 12:20 PM
Looking at the first post this another thread that has slipped right off the plate.Yeah, well, it slipped at post #2, as I recall.

We're just considering the "implications." :p

MJC
05-08-2006, 04:17 PM
How many guys will lay down 30k for a K-2 when they know Compaq monitors come with 5 dollar "JBL PRO" speakers attached to them.

JBL knows this, thats why they market to North America like they do.
Ipod docking stations get you a Ferrari, JBL ads in Stereophile will get you broke fast.

There is a huge difference between speakers that are designed for a hifi room, or a HT and a "pro" speaker used on a computer.
To expand on that, you can buy THX certified speakers for your HT and you can buy THX speakers for your computer setup. Are the computer "THX" speakers equal to HT "THX" speakers-Hell No. THX requirements for computer speakers is far short of what they require for full blown HT.

To the same extent, the JBL Pro speaker on the Compaq is nowhere in the ballpark as far as "real" JBL Pro speakers used in venues.

And as far as Ipods, give me a break! In another thread. I started awhile back, "the dumbing down of audio" shows the difference between the two extremes. On one end you have DVD-audio/SACD and the audio that will go with BR and HD DVD and then there is Ipod and mp3 at the other end.

As I was walking thru Costco a few weeks ago I passed a display of JBL and Altec Ipods. The Altecs were playing, what a bunch of crap! Bottom heavy, distorted bass and I very much doubt that the top end was over 8k htz much less 12k and beyond.

When I listen to music, I want to be able to hear ALL the music that my old ears are capable of hearing. And as it was intended to be heard.

Robh3606
05-08-2006, 05:34 PM
Ipod and mp3 at the other end.

You shouldn't be so hard on the Ipod or MP3 for that matter. The Ipod can do lossless formats and higher sampling rate MP3 from the right encoder is better than you get over the terrestrial radio in you car.

Rob:)

MJC
05-08-2006, 05:43 PM
You shouldn't be so hard on the Ipod or MP3 for that matter. The Ipod can do lossless formats and higher sampling rate MP3 from the right encoder is better than you get over the terrestrial radio in you car.

Rob:)
I wasn't including radio for that reason. When at home, I listen to DVD-audio, SACD, cd and satellite delivered Music Choice. I only listen to the car radio occassionally.