new "synthesis 3 array"

[porsche911]

JBL has announced the updated Synthesis 3 Array, using speakers from the Array Series. Apparently though, the system consists of (4) HTPS400 subwoofers. The HTPS400 is THX Ultra certified, and according to the .pdf its -3db@28hz.

Does anyone know it having multiple subwoofers extends the frequency response? More SPL at lower freq. Is that why they use four subwoofers? They also seem to do this with the other Synthesis series: Syn Hercules, 4 Subs ; Syn 4 subs; Syn ONE 2 subs.

Are they just doing this more SPL at say 30HZ or for lower range say below 20Hz.

Honestly -3db@28Hz seems unimpressive for a $35,000 system. Especially when other subs nowadays seem to go much lower. The subs alone are $2000 x 4 = $8000. Seems to me JBL could make a Godzilla-King Kong-earthquake subwoofer for that much. Hey don't get mad, just an opinion.

[Mr. Widget]

It is difficult to get a good bass response in many listening rooms and home theaters. If you use four subs it can make it easier to achieve quality bass without the usual room modes causing far too much bass in some locations with almost no apparent bass in others. There are a number of white papers and articles by Dr. Floyd Toole of Harman International describing this. If you do some searches on these discussion forums you'll find many interesting links.


Widget

[edgewound]

I believe that in certain acoustic spaces it's just not possible to get lower than a certain frequency and have it be usable without it bleeding or spilling out to adjacent areas...like the neighbor's house...or that obnoxious pounding from that other kid's car next to you at the stop light and you can't hear your own system.

Often-times it just make more practical sense to have bass shakers installed in your seating to take care of things below say 25 hz if you really feel the need to "feel" the bass anyway. That way you don't risk too much SPL in the room to cause more structural wear on things....like your ears...not too mention your house.

Unfortunately...many buyers are spec driven and will buy the product that has the most impressive printed specs, that might not necessarily be true or even useful.

[Ducatista47]

The major restriction for low bass in most listening rooms is the size of that room. Mine is 24 x 15 x 8 and nothing below 24hz will propagate. There are room calculators available on the web; I think a handy one in excel lived on the Harmon white papers web page, but it is down right now.

The other thing is, most people who have heard a test cd are not concerned with anything under 35hz for music, only movies. Twenty hz is just about inaudible, and no musical fundamentals exist down there. OK, the largest pipe in a few organs. Otherwise, only synthetic "music."

Clark in Peoria

[Mr. Widget]

The other thing is, most people who have heard a test cd are not concerned with anything under 35hz for music, only movies. Twenty hz is just about inaudible, and no musical fundamentals exist down there. OK, the largest pipe in a few organs. Otherwise, only synthetic "music."

Clark in PeoriaThat is mostly true... OK, I have no idea what most people think, but typically music doesn't contain deep bass. This was absolutely true back in the analog days as tape and albums just don't handle frequencies below 30Hz real well.

Not just synthetic, modern, etc. types of music... if you listen to the last cut on Sapphire Blue, by Larry Carlton you'll hear an "acoustic" guitar with pickup on the left channel and harmonica on the right... and there is a wee bit of synthesizer in the background... along with an extremely lively and dynamic guitar sound there are intense subharmonics that are more pressure waves than acoustic... it is kind of audio pyrotechnics, but it is certainly very cool... and if you are using a speaker that plays deep into the 20Hz zone you won't get to experience all that they put on the album.


Widget

[Robh3606]

Often-times it just make more practical sense to have bass shakers installed in your seating to take care of things below say 25 hz if you really feel the need to "feel" the bass anyway. That way you don't risk too much SPL in the room to cause more structural wear on things....like your ears...not too mention your house.


Have you ever tried a demo with them??? I did at one of the HE shows Stereophille does. It's not even close to real deal. There nothing like having the whole room energized. It comes through the couch naturally. Doesn't feel right without feeling the pressure over your whole body. I am not talking crazy high levels either. Certainly less than a movie at THX level.

Rob:)

[edgewound]

Have you ever tried a demo with them??? I did at one of the HE shows Stereophille does. It's not even close to real deal. There nothing like having the whole room energized. It comes through the couch naturally. Doesn't feel right without feeling the pressure over your whole body. I am not talking crazy high levels either. Certainly less than a movie at THX level.

Rob:)

Yes I have demo'd...didn't say I liked it...just sometimes more practical:)

[Ducatista47]

That is mostly true... OK, I have no idea what most people think, but typically music doesn't contain deep bass. This was absolutely true back in the analog days as tape and albums just don't handle frequencies below 30Hz real well.

Not just synthetic, modern, etc. types of music... if you listen to the last cut on Sapphire Blue, by Larry Carlton you'll hear an "acoustic" guitar with pickup on the left channel and harmonica on the right... and there is a wee bit of synthesizer in the background... along with an extremely lively and dynamic guitar sound there are intense subharmonics that are more pressure waves than acoustic... it is kind of audio pyrotechnics, but it is certainly very cool...

Widget
Well, I will admit to being an old fart, but my musical tastes often drive people out of the room. Arnold Schoenberg, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Sam Rivers, Jimmy Lyons, Sun Ra, Jan Garbarek, Maria Pia De Vito. I love the sax "solo" in Lost Highway. A memory I keep close is having worked twice with John Cage. I'm no musical prude.

What I was getting at is that most music below 35 - 40 hz is produced with synthesizers, and without musical genius behind it such music sounds synthetic, and that is not a compliment. Caoineadh Cu Chulainn from Riverdance, for instance, is done well, and it moves me greatly. There, the instruments are handled with equal grace and it works quite nicely.

I'll go out on a limb here and state that IMO the problem with most music presently made below 35 hz is that it is being produced by really bad musicians or non musicians without a clue. I don't care if an artist uses his GI tract to make music as long as the talent is there. If it isn't, a Selmer Paris sax or a Lloyd Loar mandolin won't help. Something that never changes through the years: copping an attitude, working on your cool, looking good on camera or sampling a phenominal talent like Jamie Jamerson has never been a substitute for having musical, or any kind of artistic talent of one's own. I'm sure I would enjoy the work you cited, but it would not be representative of the genre.

Moderators, feel free to move this to the music or the off topic forum, or to nuke it as needed.:p

Clark

[robpatton]

JBL is making great advances in the areas of multiple subwoofer equalization and utilization. This will be the next substantial advancement in the HT market. It will switch from trying to force one or two 18" subs into submission to coaxing 4-6 smaller subwoofers to perform better and eq flat more easily. Keep your eyes peeled for more info and equipment in this area from JBL.
Rob

[4313B]

Actually we've been doing that in the custom realm since the late 70's but it will be nice to see an official package from JBL.

[hapy._.face]

I'll go out on a limb here and state that IMO the problem with most music presently made below 35 hz is that it is being produced by really bad musicians or non musicians without a clue...

Agreed! A lot of it isn't even the musicians at all!! In fact, I'll go further out on that limb with you by saying recording "engineers" take way too much creative liberty these days. Most of it is done at the very sake of true musicianship, but I will reserve a place for the quality few that make beautiful music in the <30Hz realm.

Widget's post reminds me of the first time I heard Mickey Hart's first Planet Drum CD- the one in which he used some of the custom made instruments used on the Apocolypse Now soundtrack. It won several recording awards including a Golden Ear. One of the instruments was a huge steel I-beam (I think 25'?) with a piano string stretched to a low B. He also incorporated digital sub harmonics, really deep under-tuned kettle drums, actual caves, conch horns, etc. It's a classic. My point is- he worked in these digi bass notes around the 30Hz mark on a couple of tracks. It works beautifully and it isn't over done or a big part of the songs' driving force. It was subtle and ..well...musical. Many artists have used this approach to make an impact and when in the hands of a world class musician- with control over the recording- it usually comes out sounding good.

A large part of the modern Reggae sound is utilizing the sub bass on the actual instrument. You can certainly hear the bassist playing notes and yet the signal is subharmonized. It can be somewhat musical, and if I played it in my car- it would sound like ghetto thump.

However, HT is a totally diffferent ballgame!! Who can deny the impact an explosion makes when felt at well below 30Hz? It's amazing!

I have 2235's for my music- because I feel it goes low enough to do the job and they sound very musical. I wouldn't dream of using them in a HT set up though...




Actually we've been doing that in the custom realm since the late 70's...


L212? ;)

[4313B]

That was the start of it all yes. JBL started offering the B212 as a separate purchase so running multiples wasn't a problem. On the custom side, JBL was unofficially recommending sealed subs using the 124/2203 and 136/2231. They were "ok" for the time.

[hapy._.face]

That was the start of it all yes. JBL started offering the B212 as a separate purchase so running multiples wasn't a problem. On the custom side, JBL was unofficially recommending sealed subs using the 124/2203 and 136/2231. They were "ok" for the time.

Intersting. I didn't know the B212 was offered out like that. I was under the impression most of them ended back up at JBL for repair and used elsewhere. They seem very hard to find. I see a lot of L212 sats, but rarely the sub. :(

I guess JBL's recommendations (sealed subs) were based on the pole piece issue the B212 had(??)

I love history, and if nothing else- the L212 is a very historical thing indeed! Thanks!

And..."ok" is an understatement for the 70's. In their day- they were probably very nice to have!

[4313B]

The B212 had several issues.

First was the built-in amplifier. It really wasn't up to the task of driving a big 4-inch coiled JBL. A nice external amplifier such as a GFA-545 coupled with a custom built active filter improved the situation 100%. I also quickly learned to run a pair of them.

Second was the mass controlling ring. As with the 124, 2203, 136, 2231, and 2235, the mass controlling ring in the 121 limited xMech.

A third issue would be the separation of the cone from the voice coil. This is not uncommon for all those old transducers when used in sealed boxes and continuously driven hard.

For those who take care of their gear and utilize proper room placement the mass controlling ring and voice coil separation issues almost never occur.

I've run 121A's and 121H's since their initial releases and I have yet to destroy one. In fact, of all these transducers the only pair I ever destroyed were 2235H's.

[spkrman57]

I've run 121A's and 121H's since their initial releases and I have yet to destroy one. In fact, of all these transducers the only pair I ever destroyed were 2235H's.


I did notice when I had my 4430's that I liked them better when I added the 2242. The bottom end really filled out much better.

But then again the 2242 makes anything sound better!;)

Ron

[edgewound]

There is lots of musical low bass in todays music. The fundamental frequency of the low B string on a 5 or 6 string bass is 31Hz in Concert Tuning with "A-440". If the group tunes down....well....they'll get below 31Hz on the bass.

Most modern electric jazz and reggae...and even heavy metal now use 5/6 string bass. Really bolsters the rhythm section if the bassist can play it.

So.....it's very common.:)

[hapy._.face]

There is lots of musical low bass in todays music. The fundamental frequency of the low B string on a 5 or 6 string bass is 31Hz in Concert Tuning with "A-440". If the group tunes down....well....they'll get below 31Hz on the bass.

Most modern electric jazz and reggae...and even heavy metal now use 5/6 string bass. Really bolsters the rhythm section if the bassist can play it.

So.....it's very common.:)

I always wondered what the freq was with a low B in that tuning. Thanks! I knew it had to be close to 30...

...and you're right. A lot of music is there. And we know how insanely popular it is for bands to down tune today. Nearly every hard rock/metal band does it!

Low B on a 5 string bass has quite an impact. I really like it when a proper jazz ensemble has a great fretless 5/6 string bassist: It makes your woofers do funny things. :p

[4313B]

Like edgewound said - in addition to stupid stuff engineers put on CD's. All it takes is one with some power behind it and your subs are toast. Just like in the old days when you took your cartridge, dropped it on the record with the volume turned all the way up and the 12-inch cone in the B212 popped out onto the floor along with all the springs and ballbearings and confetti...

[edgewound]

12-inch cone in the B212 popped out onto the floor along with all the springs and ballbearings and confetti...

Yeah...reinstalling those ballbearings and confetti is a bitch.

[Ducatista47]

OK, nice to know there is lots of music down there. Too bad it does seem to be the product of idiots after all. Would I be correct in assuming metal bands tune down to make string bends easier? The old fashioned and the talented, like SRV, developed their forearms instead of their excentricities. These guitarists sound like they are playing rubber bands. The sound is terrible by comparison. Kenny Wayne Shepherd does it for real and it shows.

I think this is the first time Giskard and I have shared a thread where I wasn't obliquely declared a moron. But the day is still young!:D

Clark in Peoria

[4313B]

I think this is the first time Giskard and I have shared a thread where I wasn't declared a moron. But the day is still young!Mr. Widget told me I had to start being "nice". :screwy: :barf: :bs:

[Ducatista47]

Mr. Widget told me I had to start being "nice". :screwy: :barf: :bs:

It's Ok, I have a thick skin and a working sense of irony. If you need to vent, just PM me!;)

Clark

[edgewound]

Would I be correct in assuming metal bands tune down to make string bends easier? The old fashioned and the talented, like SRV, developed their forearms instead of their excentricities. These guitarists sound like they are playing rubber bands. The sound is terrible by comparison. Kenny Wayne Shepherd does it for real and it shows.

Clark in Peoria

Well, Clark...You can't really assume that. There are 7 string guitars now that the metal/alternative rock bands play and Steve Vai is probably the most recognizable to the widest age range. The 7th string is also a low B at around 247 Hz in tune.

SRV...my all-time fav...tuned his low E down a half step to E flat...a la Jimi Hendrix...and so did Eddie Van Halen in the early years to compensate for David Lee Roth's limited upper register....so the rumor goes anyway.

SRV used medium gauge strings, .011-.050 to give his strat a fatter tone with more body...and to allow easier bending with such a heavy string, he tuned down a half step.

Kenny Wayne Shepherd is a protege' of SRV... His dad arranged that and they all hung out together at SRV concerts...backstage when KWS was a little boy.

The lowest note on a Concert Grand 88 key piano is something in the neighborhood of 27Hz. I bet our friend and pro piano tuner Steve Schell could either confirm that or tell me I'm a bone-head if I'm incorrect....but Steve is alot nicer than that.

Check out this useful link:

http://www.vibrationdata.com/piano.htm

[Ducatista47]

SRV was a favorite of mine as well. Heard him in clubs small and large. That's why I brought up KWS. I think he often used the heaviest low strings I ever heard of existing. I'll look for the ancient Guitar Player to verify, give me a few months. He didn't rely on just dropped tuning, he had the strongest forearms in the business.

D L Roth is, and always has been a real piece of work. Don't get me started. I think of him when I see a Roto Rooter truck. Love the other lads.

Low notes, I forgot the Bosendorfer Imperial. Extra bass keys and I don't remember how hugely long the piano is.

So what is a bass low E when tuned down? 38.891 or 36.708? 41 normally, I think.

So I am even more full of crap than usual? I must be turning brown. But I still like the sound of heavier strings. I don't think "skinny top - heavy bottom" sounds very good. Personally, my 1977 Mesa Boogie prefers Gibsons with heavy strings.:D

Cool link, thank you.

Clark in Peoria

[edgewound]

Clark...your not full of crap.

I agree with you. I play .010's myself. Stevie Ray always played at 200% with a passion and fire that I've never seen before or since his passing.

The day I heard he was killed in that helicopter crash that should have been Eric Clapton's seat, was the only time I ever shed a tear for a celebrity. The next tears was for Johnny Carson.

I guess we've taken this far enough off topic:o: .

[Ducatista47]

Thanks, Edgewound. I did hear another with as much drive and fire, and maybe even more talent if that is posssible. Back in the day (1969), Peter Green leading the original Fleetwood Mac. Kenetic Playground, Chicago. They recorded the legendary double album at Chess during their stay.

The best Guitarist I ever heard.

Clark