View Full Version : 4345 Restoration Thread
Hi gang, I thought I would start a new thread to tell you about my attempt to resurrect a pair of Canadian 4345's. I feel very privileged to have custody of these monsters and I also want to send my thanks to everyone so far for their offers of information, reconing and encouragement.
As matter of fact, a big thank you especially to Don, for creating this place! Without this forum, I wouldn't have had access to a pair of 4345's. AND I would still know squat about JBL's.:p
Last weekend I pulled the 2245H's and 2122H's and successfully got them moved down to the basement into an area where I can work.
Earl K has kindly offered to post my pics into this thread, so if you are reading this, Earl please feel free to add them here. More later.
Earl K
04-13-2006, 11:12 AM
Here ya go Chas !
- I've got a couple of more reductions to execute before they can get posted .
- Those postings should happen this evening .
:)
Thanks Earl, nice work.
Okay, the first thing I had to do was replace the piece of the base that had fallen off, you can see it lying on top of the cabinet in the fourth pic.
Interestingly, it was only lightly glued on and tacked with three finishing nails set in from the inside of the cabinet. I glued and scewed it back on.
This weekend I hope to start cleaning up the baffles and the veneer. As you can see, the previous owner had added some stick-on velcro that has left a yellowish residue.
Anyone know how I can get this residue off without affecting the JBL blue paint?
Second, there are a couple of nasty gouges in the veneer on the sides, one of which is shown. Suggestions on what to do here? The damage appears to be a long compression groove, rather than a tear of the veneer. Any thoughts, folks?
Also, before these babies get oiled up, there are minor paint spots and light cup rings on top. How should I deal with these? Steel wool or a light sanding?
Earl K
04-14-2006, 09:19 AM
- Here are a couple more pics.
Re; the displayed "compression-type" scratch ,
- I've seen this sort of repair previously mentioned , as a type that may come out with a medium-hot iron working through a towel though I've never done that sort of repair myself .
:)
- Charles, I'm off-line till Monday evening ( - I'm glad that you saw that I changed the order of the above pics )
Thanks Earl. Re. the compression marks, I am still thinking about how to fix'em. Maybe I will leave them well enough alone - at least, for now.
Nice grille frames, eh? I have no idea what to do with them yet.
Today, I re-painted the bases flat black. Flat doesn't seem to be what JBL chose for these or my 4430's, but it doesn't look like a satin finish either:dont-know.
Bo's pictures make his bases look like they are gloss black. Hey Bo, did you repaint yours?
I also managed to get the foilcal that was lifted at one corner to lie flat with the use of some good old fashioned contact cement and heavy metal weights.
I tried some rubbing alcohol to remove the glue gunk on the baffles from the stick-on velcro the previous owner used, it didn't work.
I remember someone telling me about "Goo-Off" "Goo be Gone" or something like that. Anybody heard of it? I wonder if it would affect the paint?
I don't think the veneer has seen oil in their entire lifetime. I am debating what to treat it with before oiling.
Any suggestions?
Titanium Dome
04-15-2006, 09:53 PM
It's called Goo Gone, and it's available in most grocery stores, hardware stores, paint stores, and building supply houses (Home Depot, Lowe's). It's got a citrus-y flavor to it, and it needs to soak in a bit before it really does the job. Hopefully, the blue paint won't absorb it, too, and rub off when you try to clean the residue.
Steve Gonzales posted a thread a year or so ago detailing how to raise the grain back up from a compression groove. Search for his thread on restoring L220 cabs, or PM him.
It's called Goo Gone, and it's available in most grocery stores, hardware stores, paint stores, and building supply houses (Home Depot, Lowe's). It's got a citrus-y flavor to it, and it needs to soak in a bit before it really does the job. Hopefully, the blue paint won't absorb it, too, and rub off when you try to clean the residue.
Steve Gonzales posted a thread a year or so ago detailing how to raise the grain back up from a compression groove. Search for his thread on restoring L220 cabs, or PM him.
Hey, thanks Ti Dome. I'll have a look for that stuff and Steve's thread.
Yesterday I rubbed the cabinets down with super fine steel wool. It nicely removed the odd paint spatter and really smoothed out the veneer.
Then two applications of Watco oil natural were applied. Holy smokes! What a difference. The grain came alive as it always does - although far nicer than my 4430's. I guess there is something about large boxes with acres of veneered area :) .
Happy Easter
Ducatista47
04-16-2006, 10:48 AM
I know you have already straightened out the foilcal, but I thought I would post this anyway. A friend and dealer here said a hair dryer will loosen them for removal and leave the adhesive. After flattening, reinstall. I have not tried it yet.
Clark
Yeah, thanks Clark, I had remembered someone actually posting that idea here a while ago, but as the pic shows, it had only lifted a slight amount. The contact cement worked great.
I just added a third and final oiling..mama mia, that grain!:p It almost looks three dimensional. Now I have to get the cone drivers sorted out. I won't worry about the HF diaphragms until I have a listen.
Based on my experience with my 4430's a couple of years ago, I pulled the crossovers and applied some Pro Gold to the press-fit wire connnectors and sprayed the rear bi-amp switch with some Caig Deoxit. They're a buggar to get at, though...:banghead:
Hofmannhp
04-16-2006, 12:38 PM
Hi Chas,
long time no contact....:)
A question to your 4345. Can you confirm, that the front wedged edges of the cabs are made from solid walnut wood. The pic Earl posted (the 2nd) shows this detail and it looks like solid wood.
HP
boputnam
04-16-2006, 01:02 PM
Bo's pictures make his bases look like they are gloss black. Hey Bo, did you repaint yours?:no: And, they are at-the-least a semi-gloss.
I did, however, touch-up some small scuffs at the very base with a black Sharpie... :bouncy:
boputnam
04-16-2006, 01:06 PM
Be careful about how you move these.
Get a hand truck - one of those things UPS uses for delivery.
Only put the hand truck in from the rear - there is a gap in the base for this.
Only lay the cabinets on their back when ON the hand truck. You will not be able to raise them again, otherwise.
Put a towel between the hand truck and the back of the cabinet.
Be careful.
Steve Gonzales
04-16-2006, 01:45 PM
I'm glad to see you tried that wonderful product. The compression dents are a little tricky to raise, you have to use a damp cloth set over the dent and a hot clothes iron. The steam will raise the grain back up. At this point, I wouldn't do it, unless they are something you can't live with. Doesn't seem like it. Let's just say that these wonderful Giants have some character. I think those adhesive drips are going to be trouble. Anything that will remove them will likely remove the blue too as Rob alluded to, put that on the back burner until later. I have a suggestion for the bases. Get some full gloss DEFT clear lacquer and spray that over the flat black, it will bring the sheen up to snuff, it dries quick and will last. I expected that these would be in poor shape judging by your first comments, they are in pretty good shape from what I see. I believe member Norealtalent has some original NOS JBL 2421 diaphragms, I don't know if he would sell them, but it would be worth a shot, PM him when you decide if you're gonna replace yours. The grill frames could be pieced back together by using a thin metal "stint" and glue, member Riessen, is someone to contact in regards to reproductions and recovering them, his work is outstanding, if you didn't know that already. Last but not least, you have a great caretaker attitude towards these super rare speakers, they deserve a home like that, I think you should make your LHS signature "The Fortunate One":D . Regards, Steve G
Hi Chas,
long time no contact....:)
A question to your 4345. Can you confirm, that the front wedged edges of the cabs are made from solid walnut wood. The pic Earl posted (the 2nd) shows this detail and it looks like solid wood.
HP
Hi HP, based on the shape of the contour of this molding, it does look like a solid piece to me.
Be careful about how you move these.
Get a hand truck - one of those things UPS uses for delivery.
Only put the hand truck in from the rear - there is a gap in the base for this.
Only lay the cabinets on their back when ON the hand truck. You will not be able to raise them again, otherwise.
Put a towel between the hand truck and the back of the cabinet.
Be careful.
Tell me about it.....:) These things are back killers when they're fully loaded.
Actually, with the cone drivers removed, I can manoeuvre them around quite well with my hand truck under the side of the cabinets. The bases on mine are an "E" design with a piece in the middle running front to back. Makes things a little "tippy" if I stick the hand truck there.
I'm glad to see you tried that wonderful product. The compression dents are a little tricky to raise, you have to use a damp cloth set over the dent and a hot clothes iron. The steam will raise the grain back up. At this point, I wouldn't do it, unless they are something you can't live with. Doesn't seem like it. Let's just say that these wonderful Giants have some character. I think those adhesive drips are going to be trouble. Anything that will remove them will likely remove the blue too as Rob alluded to, put that on the back burner until later. I have a suggestion for the bases. Get some full gloss DEFT clear lacquer and spray that over the flat black, it will bring the sheen up to snuff, it dries quick and will last. I expected that these would be in poor shape judging by your first comments, they are in pretty good shape from what I see. I believe member Norealtalent has some original NOS JBL 2421 diaphragms, I don't know if he would sell them, but it would be worth a shot, PM him when you decide if you're gonna replace yours. The grill frames could be pieced back together by using a thin metal "stint" and glue, member Riessen, is someone to contact in regards to reproductions and recovering them, his work is outstanding, if you didn't know that already. Last but not least, you have a great caretaker attitude towards these super rare speakers, they deserve a home like that, I think you should make your LHS signature "The Fortunate One":D . Regards, Steve G
Thanks for the info, Steve. Good idea about the stint. At work we can cut up to 11 ga. steel, hmm....
Although, I think I will leave the grille frame and baffle goop alone for a while. And, after oiling, the gouge doesn't seem all that prominent any longer....
I am going to concentrate on getting them running for now. Thanks for the lead on the diaphragms. I think I may have a pair, I just can't remember if they are 8 or 16 Ohms.
mbottz
04-27-2006, 12:26 PM
Nice grille frames, eh? I have no idea what to do with them yet.
I can fix these for you to better than new condition. PM me if you need some help. These would look great after restoration with some of Zilch's blue cloth!!
mb
I can fix these for you to better than new condition. PM me if you need some help. These would look great after restoration with some of Zilch's blue cloth!!
mb
Okay, a PM will be sent. Thanks.:)
They are up and running, stay tuned for details...anyone want to assist with loading pics here? Apparently I am hopeless at it.......:banghead:
Fangio
07-30-2006, 09:19 PM
:)
Fangio
07-30-2006, 09:27 PM
...
Fangio
07-30-2006, 09:31 PM
Congratulations - great setup. :thmbsup:
Guido
07-31-2006, 03:24 AM
Very Nice! :applaud:
What Amp is this?
Very Nice! :applaud:
What Amp is this?
Thanks Fangio for the nice work. Guido, the amp is an old cheap and cheerful Nikko Alpha 450 (220W/ch/8Ohms) and it is driving the 2245H's. Also, you can see in the first pic there are a pair of SUB-1500's in Parts Express 3 cu.ft. boxes lurking in the corners. They are driven by the Denon POA-6600's (450W/channel/4 Ohms).
Until I get a DIY crossover running for the 290 Hz high pass, I have pressed my Ashly's into service for full triamp duty. I really needed to get the 2245's driven directly, what a difference it made to both the 2245's and the 2122's!
I also included a shot of the of the off-center 2245 recone for Bo, Edge and others. I am waiting for the replacement cone kit to arrive.
The shot of the "engine room" that is adjacent to my listening room is for Bo, I love having all that stuff in another room. In summer, it can reach 82 degrees F after a few hours of listening. The room is usually 68 degrees before turn on....
Mr. Widget
07-31-2006, 09:47 AM
Thanks Fangio for the nice work.
Yes, thanks... and Chas, thanks for sharing, really nice looking set up.
The shot of the "engine room" that is adjacent to my listening room is for Bo, I love having all that stuff in another room. In summer, it can reach 82 degrees F after a few hours of listening. The room is usually 68 degrees before turn on....I agree... I like the tidier aesthetics... unfortunately in most cases it also means long speaker wire runs.
Widget
... unfortunately in most cases it also means long speaker wire runs.
Widget
True, but not too long and I am using heavy Canare 4S11 paralleled up. One cable per freq. band per channel. The Ikea amp rack backs on to the listening rooms' right hand wall. So, it's almost the same as being in-room against that wall.
speakerdave
07-31-2006, 10:56 AM
Very spiffy-clean, Chas. Nice work on those classics.
David
Thanks everyone for the comments, encouragment and epecially to our MIA (ex-member?), he did a gorgeous job on the 2122H's. It's been some three years since I got that first pair of 4325's and started hanging around here. Now I can't believe my good fortune, I never even dreamed that I would own a pair of 4345's.
Ducatista47
07-31-2006, 09:59 PM
Wonderful job, Chas. Your toil has resulted in a super nice rig. I hope you enjoy the results as much as I enjoy my setup. I really like the tube top/ss bottom system with these speakers, too.
Bi-amping sure performs a miracle with 4345's, doesn't it!
Great job, and great to see a Canadian pair, Clark in Peoria
PS What do you listen to on them? How close? How loud?
boputnam
08-01-2006, 07:48 AM
I really needed to get the 2245's driven directly, what a difference it made to both the 2245's and the 2122's!Sure does. Nothing quite like it...
I also included a shot of the of the off-center 2245 recone for Bo, Edge and others. I am waiting for the replacement cone kit to arrive.I agree with your concern - that looks wrong.
The shot of the "engine room" that is adjacent to my listening room is for Bo, I love having all that stuff in another room. In summer, it can reach 82 degrees F after a few hours of listening. The room is usually 68 degrees before turn on....GREAT NAME - "Engine Room"!!!
I'm the same. It occurred to me, with encouragement from the wifey - she pointed out that when I'm doing shows my console and FX racks are distant from the mains - only the artists are between them. So, that got me thinking... :hmm: The result is to me far more sensible and useful. Cabling interconnects now do not have to be overly cosmetic, and when transitioning between components I can leave it untidy for a few days and no-one is the wiser. It's guy stuff anyway.
My goal is to completely replicate the gig show set-up, and have only the preamps and components in the pantry, and put the power amps in the laundry behind the wall the 4345's are protecting ( ;) ). That will keep the "long" runs as low-impedence balanced, and will shorten the speaker runs to about 3m length. But, for convenience, that would mean running power back to the pantry so I can I/O the entire system from there, through one power conditioner. Some weekend this winter...
Chas, you did a great job. I know what it is to feel the pleasure of having a pair of 4345's around. They simply never stop giving...
Robh3606
08-01-2006, 09:24 AM
Hello Chas
Those do look nice!! Your lucky you have a pair. Nice idea on the amps and such. I ended up using 19" racks to help tiddy things up. You can get quite a bit into one with a small foot print and they don't look too bad. Better that trying to stack them on shelves in the same room. Yours is the best solution if you can pull it off.
Rob:)
Steve Gonzales
08-01-2006, 12:24 PM
Chas, thank you for sharing your rig with us. Great job. Do those Denon POA's have the STASIS topology? Thanks to Fangio too. :applaud:
Wonderful job, Chas. Your toil has resulted in a super nice rig. I hope you enjoy the results as much as I enjoy my setup. I really like the tube top/ss bottom system with these speakers, too.
Bi-amping sure performs a miracle with 4345's, doesn't it!
Great job, and great to see a Canadian pair, Clark in Peoria
PS What do you listen to on them? How close? How loud?
Mainly jazz these days, although rock and spacey techno new age stuff occasionaly. I sit about 8-10 feet away. How loud? Well, one thing I have noticed is that I don't play music as loudly compared to my S-22-2 system, I just don't get the urge to crank them nearly as much. The musical detail just seems to unfold easily at lower levels.
[quote=boputnamMy goal is to completely replicate the gig show set-up, and have only the preamps and components in the pantry, and put the power amps in the laundry behind the wall the 4345's are protecting ( ;) ). That will keep the "long" runs as low-impedence balanced, and will shorten the speaker runs to about 3m length. But, for convenience, that would mean running power back to the pantry so I can I/O the entire system from there, through one power conditioner. Some weekend this winter...
Chas, you did a great job. I know what it is to feel the pleasure of having a pair of 4345's around. They simply never stop giving...[/quote]
Thanks Bo, I was fortunate to find a very reasonable electrician who installed four dedicated circuits to feed everything in there. The 200 Amp service panel is only abut 24 feet away as well. :) My line level balanced cabling runs across the ceiling.
Chas, thank you for sharing your rig with us. Great job. Do those Denon POA's have the STASIS topology? Thanks to Fangio too. :applaud:
Thanks Steve, I believe you ae thinking about old Nakamichi amps, I don't think Denon ever got into that.
Hello Chas
Those do look nice!! Your lucky you have a pair. Nice idea on the amps and such. I ended up using 19" racks to help tiddy things up. You can get quite a bit into one with a small foot print and they don't look too bad. Better that trying to stack them on shelves in the same room. Yours is the best solution if you can pull it off.
Rob:)
Thanks Rob, actually I am double lucky:
1. The listening room is free from any WAF influences, this was agreed to before she moved in ;) .
2. My amps are actually in HER workroom! With her blessing, of course:applaud:
Ducatista47
08-02-2006, 09:30 PM
Mainly jazz these days, although rock and spacey techno new age stuff occasionaly. I sit about 8-10 feet away. How loud? Well, one thing I have noticed is that I don't play music as loudly compared to my S-22-2 system, I just don't get the urge to crank them nearly as much. The musical detail just seems to unfold easily at lower levels.
Likewise, likewise and likewise. Enjoy, I know you will. A unique sounding but very versatile speaker, I think. Balanced beyond belief. Even at quiet levels they exhibit huge JBL style huevos. To me they sound like a miracle.
Clark, Peoria 4345 Owner:bouncy:
Yesterday I got some Hovland's to update the 3145 boards. They will be a hell of a challenge to install nicely because of the new massive capacitor sizes versus JBL OEM capacitors. But I have had great success using them in my S-22-2's and I think the effort will be well worth it. I'll get to doing the mod when the wonky off center 2245H comes out for a new cone.
I have also ordered a pair of Marchand fourth order 290 Hz state variable 24 dB/octave crossover boards to modify my old DIY crossovers. They are a bargain at US$40.00 each and at that price, well worth a try, I think.
I installed the Marchand XM crossover boards on Friday into a pair of old DIY mono active crossovers that feature all the necessary clean sounding balanced input and output interfaces.
By the way, these Marchand boards are really nicely made. I got the "upgrade" version with OPA op-amps instead of standard LF353's for $3.00/chip extra (three chips per channel). I ran some tests on the bench and confirmed they are very accurately set up at 290 Hz. I can highly recommend this product.
After a couple of days burn-in they are singing. I am still using the Ashly units downstream of the low pass too.
Next up: Hovland installation, it ain't gonna be nearly as much fun......
Zilch
08-28-2006, 12:08 PM
Pics, please.... :)
Pics, please.... :)
Here is the board, it measures 2X3".
http://www.marchandelec.com/xm1.jpg
I finally have them buttoned up with a reconed 2245H, that still looks "odd". It must be something about the cone kits JBL are getting from their supplier. The foam surround is still off-center:banghead: . But, they both appear to work fine and the VC's seem to be centered.
The installation of the Hovland capacitors went okay, I wasn't keen on carving up the 3145 PCB's, but I reasoned that it would be extremely unlikely that I will ever part with these babies. I even mounted two, four conductor Speakon connectors on the rear and completely bypassed the original terminals and the switch.
The design of the 3145 boards made it easy to go one step further than I had planned. I easily adapted one four conductor Speakon input, used for the high pass, to allow bi-wire operation between the MF and HF/UHF combination. Yes, I know, it probably doesn't matter, but what the hell..... :p The small board looks after business for the HF and UHF drivers. All the PCB holes did have to be drilled slightly larger to fit the large wire diameter that Hovland use. No problem though,JBL used very nice quality PCB's with very heavy traces.
I did have to mount three of the capacitors outboard. One was attached to the foil side of the LF/MF PCB, the other two were attached to a 2X4 that was mounted to the bottom of the cabinet.
The woofer is now hard wired to the other Speakon.
Improvement? To my ears, without a doubt, it's well worth the trouble and expense. 43XX owners, warm up those soldering irons, you won't be disappointed.
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