JBL S1S-EX/2242HPL the "most frightening" subs out there??? [Archive]

thelion

04-05-2006, 06:27 AM

Hi guys. I need your advice.

My situation: I currently have a pair of K2-9800SE (which I love) - for stereo purposes only. I use a Klipsch THX2 Ultra 7.1 System in my HT ATM. I would like to sell the Klipsch, buy a SK2-1000 Center and build up a full 7.1 Synthesis system.

My question is regarding the S1S-EX subwoofers. I would run them with matching JBL S800 monoblocks.

What do I want: The meanest, most powerful, spectacular, deepest and all around frightening bass money can buy - I think you get the point. Restrictions: I don't want to build it myself (if thats what some of you DIY guys where going to suggest), Initially I'm going to use at least 2, further down the road 4 subs, I'm not on a strict budget BUT I want the most bang for the buck - and I mean BANG!

So on to my question: How does a S1S-EX/S800 combo compare to "alternatives" like SVS Ultra/2, Velodyne DD18/DD1812, Klipsch THX Ultra2 KW120, ... ??? I like my Klipsch but want MORE. I have heard DD18 but they are too "gentle" for my liking. I want something "violent, brute". Super high potential SPL, low distortions. But it should be able to dig really deep (usable 16Hz-18Hz output) at the same time.

Where to look for something like that? Are there any subs out there that are comparable/competitive considering what I want bass to sound - "fierceful" ? Thanks in advance for your opinions.

thelion

04-05-2006, 08:17 AM

Thanks for the reply.

So I take it that going with 2-4 S1S-EX/S800 combos in my 7500 cubic feet room will not result in a really earth shattering experience...

Please allow me to repeat what I'm looking for - pretty much a turnkey solution. No DIY or dealing with non-consumer professional stuff. I know it will cost me. But thats the whole point of what I'm planning on for my HT right now. I'm willing to buy those SK2-1000 speakers (three of them, 1 as center, 2 as surrounds) BECAUSE I love the sound of my K2-S9800 so much. I want to build my new HT around them. All I need now is a subwoofer that has 1) enough power to match the other speakers in my system and 2) even more than that. The subwoofer is probably the most important ingredient when it comes to what I like. It just has to be earthshattering. That kind of performance brought down to domestic use in households is the whole point of Synthesis IMHO. I'm convinced that the K2/SK2 stuff is as good as it gets for that matter. Looking at the features (?) and specs of S1S-EX/S800 just made me wonder if that combo is really the best CONSUMER Subwoofer out there (in a <$5000 price range, I intend to use up to 4 subwoofers in my system and therefor about $5000 is really the limit for one of them). I wonder why JBL has not developed a subwoofer targeted at the very high end Synthesis systems (Atlas, Hercules, the stuff using K2 speakers). Instead the "re-used" the S1S-EX (Synthesis One) for there larger systems as well.
An JBL exec "announced"/hinted in an interview I read quite some time ago that JBL is working on an active subwoofer targeted at the K2 family of speakers. Is that what you where suggesting too?

Does any consumer subwoofer come to your mind (whatever brand) that would be a good match for my system needs?

Thank you for your time.

Steve Gonzales

04-05-2006, 09:37 AM

Welcome to the LHS. I will suggest a sub for you until those JBL's are available for you to purchase. This sub will definately fill the tall order you specified: http://www.servodrive.com/contrabass.html . Some time back, I watched a video clip of an experiment being performed by a university on the effects of different types of noises on the average city dwelling. They used a row of these subs (modified I believe for this test) lined up outside a house and then played various recorded sounds at various db levels. They used a DAT recorder for their source and stated that some of the sounds contained content as low as five hertz (5hz). They simulated the effect of a jet airplane flying directly overhead. My jaw dropped as these mighty subs were able to violently shake the outer walls of the house, I mean violently, like an earthquake!. I want to add that I would stay with JBL's new stuff when it becomes available, after all, this is the Lansing Heritage Site and I love JBL, sounds like you do too, so you know what I mean. We'd love to see some pictures of your current set up if possible. Good luck with your sub search, Steve G.

edgewound

04-05-2006, 09:52 AM

Hi guys. I need your advice.
What do I want: The meanest, most powerful, spectacular, deepest and all around frightening bass money can buy - I think you get the point. Restrictions: I don't want to build it myself (if thats what some of you DIY guys where going to suggest), Initially I'm going to use at least 2, further down the road 4 subs, I'm not on a strict budget BUT I want the most bang for the buck - and I mean BANG!

Where to look for something like that? Are there any subs out there that are comparable/competitive considering what I want bass to sound - "fierceful" ? Thanks in advance for your opinions.

I can't decide if you're every HT dealers' dream customer or worst nightmare. I have a feeling you won't be satisfied until your subwoofer system knocks your house down and then you'll sue him for destroying your house.

Steve Gonzales

04-05-2006, 10:10 AM

This is James B. Lansing

Mr. Widget

04-05-2006, 11:10 AM

I use JBL Sub1500s which are no longer available but have been replaced with the very similar Array 1500s. I find their ability to produce extremely deep and still musical bass outstanding. I own an older HGS Velodyne and find it too artificial sounding... it does pound the house, but I am not crazy about it's sound character.

As far as the S1S subs, I recently built 4 dual versions of them and found them to be much more powerful than the Sub1500 but not quite as deep sounding... they are also huge! They will certainly pressurize the room and damage the foundation given enough power... they are actually quite efficient, but they handle gobs of power and if they are given it, they will scare you... that said I would prefer to use more Sub1500s or Array 1500s in a domestic space... I personally prefer their sound. It is very deep, clean, and surprisingly articulate. They will do sub 20Hz quite well, but you will need a few of them if you are after crazy SPLs.

I am not sure if you were seriously considering the Velodyne 1812... if so than the cost of 4 or 8 Array 1500s shouldn't be a problem... another nice thing about the Array 1500s is that they are self powered so you won't need to get extra amplification.

Widget

Mr. Widget

04-05-2006, 11:17 AM

I think you mean 4645C but we can discuss offline.
I thought the current S1S was a 2242 in an 8 cu ft box tuned to 25Hz? If not, that is what I tried.... and it was awesome, but as mentioned I'd prefer a few Array 1500s, or Sub1500s over it's sound.

Widget

thelion

04-05-2006, 11:37 AM

Lutz

04-05-2006, 11:40 AM

Hey Giskard,

What did you say in your 1st reply to the post that made "thelion" think the SIS EX's wouldn't rock his world?? (It was deleted before I got to read it.)

I am using 4 4645B's (which i think are very similar to the SIS's but I have no experience them, i just know you mentioned them in a post of mine when we were discussing the 4654 line of subs.) powered by 4 Crown's (bridged) in a 20' x 40 x 10 room (8000 cu. ft.) and believe me they are "earthshattering" ...:argue:

By the way I paid 500$ each for my 4645B's used in good shape, and for the money he is willing to spend he could line the walls with them... because in a room that large for the sound he is claiming he wants he will for sure need 4 or more of anything no matter what the brand IMO.

I will just give him one word of advise before he ends up in my shoes. I spent a ton of time and money on my system and at this point I have several :banghead: pissed off Neighbors and 3 warnings from the police :wasnt-me:

Be cool
David

Steve Gonzales

04-05-2006, 12:20 PM

Thank you for your thoughts, Widget.

I looked into 1500's but they are not quite appealing to me. Imagening those subs standing beside my K2's I would feel sorry for them. I want something with bragging rights included, something big, something fierce. May sound very childish to you but I need to be blown away just by the idea of owning something. Pure fascination. I have had this exact feeling with my K2's ever since I saw/witnessed them the first time. I'm just looking for subwoofers that are a real MATCH for the K2's. The 1500 is a good match for the rest of the new Array lineup, but the K2 is a different league altogether IMHO.

So my question remains: Why does quite about any JBL line out there offer a subwoofer specifically designed for it - any but the JBLs crown jewel K2 line??? Revel makes a powerful and beautiful sub that might fill the bill. I would dare say that it would integrate with your K2's and look like it belonged too. It has a very sophisticated room equalization/optimization set up that would be of great benefit too. Revel is a relative of JBL. BTW, the speculation that JBL would release an Array 1800, was the sub I was referring to earlier on in the thread, when I said "Buy that when it becomes available". Here is a link to the Revel Sub30 http://www.revelspeakers.com/products/product-overview.asp?ID=13

John

04-05-2006, 12:36 PM

So my question remains: Why does quite about any JBL line out there offer a subwoofer specifically designed for it - any but the JBLs crown jewel K2 line???

Well maybe JBL thought the "K2" Stands Alone!!!

This may sound childish but:useless:

Of your K2,s :bouncy:

thelion

04-05-2006, 12:43 PM

" Well maybe JBL thought the "K2" Stands Alone!!! "

You are aware that the K2's go down to 45Hz (linear)... So even for a pure stereo application I would recommend a subwoofer...

edgewound

04-05-2006, 12:55 PM

I'd look around in some of the better stores like "Best Buy" or Walmart where you can have constant return priveledges when you've discovered you're bored with your purchase.

I think I've decided you're every dealer's nightmare...I don't care how much money you have. The product just has to look right...regardless of how it performs...and then still it won't be right....and you'll never be happy....and the dealer will go nuts...and broke trying to satisfy a customer who can't be satisfied with the best of the best.

I though about deleting this post. But I think I'll let it stay....because sometimes things just need to be said. I've also discovered throughout the years that some people just need to spend more money to feel better about their purchase.

And...if you're just yanking the forums' chain...you should leave.

baldrick

04-05-2006, 12:59 PM

A friend of mine is running a pair of Velodyne HGS18 (previous model of DD18) together with his 250TI and I understand what you're saying when you say that they are too gentle :) They play VERY deep, I guess deeper than the S1S will, but I don't think at all they will match the punch from the S1S. But since you have 9800 maybe you don't need the punch of the S1S?

I guess the Velodyne DD18 and SVS Ultra/2 is very much the same, if want you want is to play LOUD below 20 hz, you should really consider them, but if -> 20hz it's not that important I would guess that the S1S is a better choice than both SVS and Velodyne!

thelion

04-05-2006, 01:02 PM

"Ok, this is a setup Mr. Widget. These guys are trolls. I'd whack the thread."

You are right. But as a troll I still demand a subwoofer to shake my cave...

baldrick

04-05-2006, 01:08 PM

thelion: Where are you from? You almost sound like my Norwegian friend with the HGS18 :hyp:

thelion

04-05-2006, 01:18 PM

" They are either trolls or incredibly stupid." Even worse, I'm from europe. Austria to be precise. English is not my native tongue. Therefor not everthing I'm trying to express turns out right (But I presume you wouldn't appear all too bright yourself in a german forum for that matter ...)

Mr. Widget

04-05-2006, 01:41 PM

I just got back from lunch and am quite confused... can we just talk about subs here... Norse legends, trolls and the like are not something I am very conversant in...

Mr. Lion, I was suggesting subs based on performance not visual visceral appeal... maybe you could get some Array 1500s stack them four high in custom made cabinets and that would strike the appropriate level of visual fear? It certainly would blow you away!

Widget

baldrick

04-05-2006, 01:42 PM

The thing is... some trolls do in fact exists :) I've posted this link before: http://avforum.no/minhjemmekino/show.php/Ulven

This is the guy with among other things have the pair of HGS18 I've mentioned. He has a $80-100.000 setup and consider buying a new $20.000 poweramp (PassLab or McIntosh) mainly based on the look!!! My point is... I agree that some things thelion says is kinda strange and the lack of picture makes us wonder if it's all true. But even so it still can be true, just take a look on the link above, what thelion says/asks about, could also the owner of that systems say/ask!

Hope you are telling the truth, and if you are, please post pictures so we can trust you! I guess that will give you will more helpful answer than you have gotten yet ;)

John

04-05-2006, 02:02 PM

Looks like digital camera are not available in Austria yet:p

John

04-05-2006, 02:06 PM

maybe you could get some Array 1500s stack them four high in custom made cabinets and that would strike the appropriate level of visual fear? It certainly would blow you away!

Widget

I agree on both counts:applaud:

Zilch

04-05-2006, 02:10 PM

Here's yer JBL max intimidation sub, and we (the forum) know(s) where there's a pair of 'em available, upon receipt of a substantial donation hereto:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/4688.pdf

[Ain't gonna be cheap to ship to Austria, tho.... :p ]

JuniorJBL

04-05-2006, 02:12 PM

Holy S&^t I can hear that thing from Denver!!!!!!!:D

4313B

04-05-2006, 02:39 PM

Ok, back to the original post and this time I will elaborate because people simply don't get my subtle cues.

What do I want: The meanest, most powerful, spectacular, deepest and all around frightening bass money can buy - I think you get the point. Restrictions: I don't want to build it myself (if thats what some of you DIY guys where going to suggest), Initially I'm going to use at least 2, further down the road 4 subs, I'm not on a strict budget BUT I want the most bang for the buck - and I mean BANG!

I want something "violent, brute". Super high potential SPL, low distortions. But it should be able to dig really deep (usable 16Hz-18Hz output) at the same time.

Ok, like I posted originally - the 4645C with 6 dB bump at 25 Hz. That will get you maximum SPL with extension to 20 Hz. Extremely loud. Now I actually read every word of your post and answered to the point. I also posted that for true violence I would double the amplifier power.

Your reply:

Please allow me to repeat what I'm looking for - pretty much a turnkey solution. No DIY or dealing with non-consumer professional stuff.

Ok, so 4645C is out. My second post was with respect to the S1S. Once again, It would not be prudent for me to elaborate on why the 4645C is THE correct stock 2242H platform. Mr. Widget now knows and I'm sure he will suggest the 4645C over the S1S in all future subwoofer discussions, especially after having touted his builds for Scott.

Does any consumer subwoofer come to your mind (whatever brand) that would be a good match for my system needs?

To which I replied the 1500 Array. Again, a very specific reason why I didn't suggest the S1S.

Thank you for your thoughts, Widget.

I looked into 1500's but they are not quite appealing to me. Imagening those subs standing beside my K2's I would feel sorry for them. I want something with bragging rights included, something big, something fierce.

The 1500 Array is quite capable of standing along side a K2 and filling in the VLF.

The 1500 is a good match for the rest of the new Array lineup, but the K2 is a different league altogether IMHO.

I disagree, and not lightly.

You are aware that the K2's go down to 45Hz (linear)... So even for a pure stereo application I would recommend a subwoofer...

I think usable response of the K2 is lower but I'll have to drag out the engineering specs tonight. The target market seems to feel the K2 is fine for pure stereo without a sub.

*****

Frequency Response (-6 dB): 50 Hz to 50 kHz (Anechoic)

f3 (-3 dB): 60 Hz

Usable response to 35 Hz.

Mr. Widget

04-05-2006, 03:09 PM

I looked into 1500's but they are not quite appealing to me. Imagening those subs standing beside my K2's I would feel sorry for them. I want something with bragging rights included, something big, something fierce.

The 1500 Array is quite capable of standing along side a K2 and filling in the VLF.

The 1500 is a good match for the rest of the new Array lineup, but the K2 is a different league altogether IMHO.

I disagree, and not lightly.Personally I prefer the aesthetics of the Project Array Series over the K2s but that is subjective... as for matching up to the performance of the K2, the new Array sub is easily the best suited JBL and possibly one of the best possible choices period. In Japan they offered the earlier version of it to go with the K2-S9800.

Widget

4313B

04-05-2006, 03:10 PM

Mr. Widget

04-05-2006, 03:13 PM

You're quote of mine is misrepresentative. Perhaps if you put his words in a different color...

And I believe you mean the HB5000 and not the HB1500.

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/products/jbl_cons/hb5000.htmI did that once I saw the quote. I guess they changed the model once it went into production... I took it from the photo.

Widget

Dammit, Bo:bash:

Mr. Widget

04-05-2006, 03:34 PM

Did somebody say something about a sub?

thelion is a member with a question. Regardless of what others may think- I'd like to continue hearing answers to his questions....without the drama..:)So would I. Though realistically... drama aside, I think we did pretty much cover it from the current Lansing perspective. If someone wants to discuss subs in general in the Off Topic are that might be appropriate.

Widget

Mr. Widget

04-05-2006, 08:27 PM

The HB1500 used our SUB1500 driver aka REVEL 15. The HB5000 uses the torrid W1500H which is also used in the 1500 Array.

Starting with post #8

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68909Always a font of JBL knowledge...

Widget

Ducatista47

04-05-2006, 08:57 PM

If JBL doesn't float ones boat, this would have appeal in all the missing but pointless areas. Visually over the top, loud beyond reason and exclusive. Always wanted a subwoofer with a built in light show. Notice the horn can be extended; choose from four eighteens or six fifteens. How could you go wrong?
http://www.core-systems.com/avhosp/speakers/walkin.html
Doesn't go that low, but no one would live to notice.

JBL's are available for an upcharge. This is as off topic as I am going to get.

Clark in Peoria

PS Did you see the spl's?!!

JuniorJBL

04-06-2006, 01:04 AM

You can not hear 16 hz anyways!!:)

thelion

04-06-2006, 01:29 AM

"Mr. Widget now knows and I'm sure he will suggest the 4645C over the S1S in all future subwoofer discussions, especially after having touted his builds for Scott."

" To which I replied the 1500 Array. Again, a very specific reason why I didn't suggest the S1S."

1) PLEASE, can anyone tell me about the "very specific" reason...

2) And what about using a S1S-EX together with a Crown K-2 in bridged mode?

3) Whats the exact difference between the 4645C and the S1S-EX?

4) Do I take it right that the best way to go would be coupling the 4645C with something as potent as the Crown K-2.

Thanks guys

hapy._.face

04-06-2006, 04:53 AM

You can not hear 16 hz anyways!!:)

No....but you can certainly feel it! Nothing takes the place of bran like a 16Hz Freq pounding at your GI tract.:D

thelion

04-06-2006, 06:59 AM

I hope I'm not pushing it but: "Again, a very specific reason why I didn't suggest the S1S."

PLEASE, can anyone tell me about the "very specific" reason...

toddalin

04-06-2006, 09:08 AM

When my S--F-- produces subsonic tones, sometimes my stomach feels like the beginning of an elevator decent!;)

No....but you can certainly feel it! Nothing takes the place of bran like a 16Hz Freq pounding at your GI tract.:D

thelion

04-06-2006, 11:06 AM

You are kind of pushing it. - No they can't and if you read what I posted the reason is revealed. I believe I posted some time back in another thread about this same topic - that one should build their own 4645C-type system and style it like the S1S if they so chose. As for the S1S-EX:

The S1S-EX is the improved version of the S1S with increased structural reinforcement and large flared ports to reduce turbulence.
The S800 and S1S-EX compliment each other very well by design.
I think you might be right after all - I'm really too stupid. I still don't get it. Just being European is no sufficient excuse for my stupidity ...

I'm pretty aware of the "differences" between the S1S and the S1S-EX version. What I was asking were the differences between S1S(-EX) and its pro version 4645C? They both share the same driver (2242H).

!!!!! Are there ANY differences beyond the cosmetics/housing/ports? Are there any differences from a performance point of view? Which are they? !!!!!

If there are non - I think the reason why you DON'T recommend buying an S1S(-EX) is that it is much more expensive (~ $3000.- list) than its Pro version without being different. Therefor buying an 4645C would be a wise thing to do... The same goes for the S800 - lists for ~$2500. A Pro amp like the Crown K2 (name would be a great match for my system...) gives me much more output (1500 W bridged @8Ohm) for a little over halve the price.

Is that the reason for your reservations about S1S/S800 or am I loosing it again?

Thank you

leif

04-06-2006, 11:22 AM

No....but you can certainly feel it! Nothing takes the place of bran like a 16Hz Freq pounding at your GI tract.:D

How come I dont feel nothing at all with my 4430 and B460?
That time I bought that sub, I got a demo of it playing with a pair of Infinity RS2b (2 8inch woofers). It was spectacular! It felt like someone were beating me with a pillow every time the bass kicked.
But home in my house... I can play loud like crazy, but it give no punch I can feel physically. How come?

Leif

toddalin

04-06-2006, 11:35 AM

For some reason I thought you had a SUB1500 or two.

No, I manage to do with the S--F--- and the W15GTI mounted in my center channel cabinet. For truly low end response, the S--F--- "out basses" the W15GTI hands down..., but we don't need to get into that here.

toddalin

04-06-2006, 11:56 AM

How come I dont feel nothing at all with my 4430 and B460?
That time I bought that sub, I got a demo of it playing with a pair of Infinity RS2b (2 8inch woofers). It was spectacular! It felt like someone were beating me with a pillow every time the bass kicked.
But home in my house... I can play loud like crazy, but it give no punch I can feel physically. How come?

Leif

Try adding one of these to your system for bass in your face. I run one on my W15GTI, more because of poor amp sensitivity, but the subharmonic synthesizer is pretty cool.

These were originally intended to restore the lost octave cut off in the transfer to vinyl where bass tones (which take up lots of groove area) were cut in the recording process. With the advent of digital and true 20 Hz reproduction, the synthesis of a new bottom octave can truly shake the room.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9708328453

http://cgi.ebay.com/DBX-110-subharmonic-synthesizer-bass-in-your-face-Rare_W0QQitemZ9703165514QQcategoryZ14978QQcmdZView Item

thelion

04-06-2006, 12:12 PM

Well, now we are getting somewhere.

Please allow for some remaining questions:

1) What is your personal opinion about a 4645C/Crown K2 combo? Would you suggest another amp instead?

2) My THX Receiver will handle the low pass filter are persume. What about high passing? What do I need to "high-pass" the 4645C at your suggested 25Hz? And when I choose to high pass it at only 20Hz the in room response will get me where? - eg. 18Hz +/- 3db. What do I need in edition to my THX receiver, the amp and the sub itself -> what to use for high passing and EQ (if necessary)?

3)I always here people telling me Pro Subs (read JBL) are optimized to go "just" loud but not deep. Whereas high end home cinema subs (like the best from Velodyne, SVS) are targeted at 16Hz-18Hz lowest frequency response. Is that true? Will my neighbors SVS Ultra/2 (2*12" driver, 1000W) or my friends Velodyne DD18 play louder than "my" upcoming 4645C/Crown combo in the Sub 25Hz range??? I know that for max SPL there is nothing like these JBLs. But what about the subsonic performance? Is this all a myth?

Sorry for my lack of knowledge.

Thanks for your time

toddalin

04-06-2006, 12:32 PM

Only to clarify that the W15GTI is a car sub.

Sure, it's only a car sub, but can play down to about 16 Hz and all the way out to 1,000 Hz and with 1.6" of cone travel, can out bass a 2235 (and maybe a 2245?).;)

http://www.jbl.com/car/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=W15GTI&cat=SUB&ser=GTI&language=ENG&country=US&region=USA

http://www.jbl.com/car/products/..%2fproducts%2fimages%2fproducts_large%2fW15GTI.j pg

toddalin

04-06-2006, 12:53 PM

Oops! My fault!
Yeah, I only talk to it's designer regularly so please leave me out of any conversations about it. ;)

You guys are funny. :p I think I'm done with you. :yes:

Actually, at the Heritage dinner, Don said that this design (e.g., differential symetrical drive) was the wave of JBL's future and he had nothing but good things to say about this speaker.:bouncy:

Mr. Widget

04-06-2006, 03:34 PM

Actually, at the Heritage dinner, Don said that this design (e.g., differential symetrical drive) was the wave of JBL's future and he had nothing but good things to say about this speaker.:bouncy:I assume he was talking about the Pro Audio PA stuff...

Todd, I don't want to sound rude but, I thought we were talking about state of the art home audio subs that would be a good match for the K2-S9800 in a two channel music system. In addition to the JBLs we have mentioned there are a handful of subs made by other manufacturers that would be in that league. Other than the Velodyne 1812, I don't think any have been discussed here. State of the art doesn't simply mean low and loud... there are plenty of booming cars and home theater subs that fill that bill.

Widget

toddalin

04-06-2006, 04:40 PM

I assume he was talking about the Pro Audio PA stuff...

Widget

No, we were discussing the W15GTI. Were you there? :o: I don't think I got that drunk.:blink:

hapy._.face

04-06-2006, 06:18 PM

...can out bass a 2235 (and maybe a 2245?).;)

OK....Do you mean it can go lower?
Listening to my 2235's, it's hard to imagine many woofers that 'outbass' them. I know they are out there- but to actually outperform a 2235 or 2245 with regard to the musical aspects of this performance...few do the job.

toddalin

04-06-2006, 06:56 PM

OK....Do you mean it can go lower?
Listening to my 2235's, it's hard to imagine many woofers that 'outbass' them. I know they are out there- but to actually outperform a 2235 or 2245 with regard to the musical aspects of this performance...few do the job.

Link tells the tale.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8818&highlight=w15gti

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/center-2235-w15gti.jpg

norealtalent

04-06-2006, 08:05 PM

... with regard to the musical aspects of this performance...few do the job.

:argue: :bash: :duel: :nanana: :thnkfast:

Tom Loizeaux

04-07-2006, 05:34 AM

This forum is valuable to most of us because we can ask questions and get answers. Not all answers are correct or totally based in fact, but others usually point out the flaws in those answers. That's the value of a discussion group.
When you're "at the bottom" of the knowledge base you learn the most. When you're "at the top" you will learn the least, however your input will be recognized as "informed" and will be taken long before other ideas and responses from less informed members.
Please don't let the common denominator discourage the enthuisasm and willingness of the more informed members to continue to contribute.
I'm sure we all learn things here and value this site very much.

Tom

Don C

04-07-2006, 07:44 AM

I think that a carefully done W15GTI DIY project would be terrific. But it would have to be a lot more than just putting it in a cabinet and seing if it works. We'd want to design a cabinet optimised for this driver. And it's clearly not appropriate for this thread, where the original poster has repeatedly stated that he is looking for an off the shelf solution.

spkrman57

04-07-2006, 08:26 AM

Giskard pointed out several times that drivers were created for specific purposes and there is little chance there are people who have done more R & D on JBL drivers than JBL!

So at the rate we are going with questions that irk Giskard, we will lose him as a valuable source to real technical questions we might have.

I myself will be pissed if he decides not to answer any more technical questions anymore due to getting annoyed at the responses we are getting lately.

Ron:(

toddalin

04-07-2006, 09:16 AM

I love it whan people post that a speaker was intentionally designed to be used in a certain application and poo poo the idea of using it for anything else without ever listening to it in that application.:blink:

Do people really think that JBL tries every driver in every application? Are some inferring that their automotive line's $700 speaker is inferior to one designed and built in Northridge?

To some of us, this is a hobby and experimentation is some of the best times.:bouncy:

Robh3606

04-07-2006, 09:37 AM

"I love it whan people post that a speaker was intentionally designed to be used in a certain application and poo poo the idea of using it for anything else without ever listening to it in that application.:blink:"

Hello Toddalin

I see this as a couple of issues. First and foremost this is the JBL Product Forum not DIY. The information here is supposed to be technically correct and not based on subjective opinions. You can post all the subjective opinions you want in DIY. This is supposed to be where specific drivers and there designed applications are discussed.

Your posts about DIY are completely out of context with the posters original intent. He didn't ask what would work for a DIY he asked for options on JBL Subs to use with 9800's. Clearly JBL is not going to use a car sub with there SOTA design.

If this was in DIY I would agree with you. Not here. JBL drivers are application specific. If you want to use them in another application feel free just keep that in DIY where it belongs.

To some of us, this is a hobby and experimentation is some of the best times.:bouncy:

Absolutely but everything in context.

Rob:)

Mr. Widget

04-07-2006, 11:16 AM

Personally, as opposed to moderatorily (not a real word for the international set), I think that this subject has been beaten to death as have Todd's earnest suggestions. I agree with Rob that the intent of this thread wasn't a cool DIY project, but I think we can be a bit nicer to our fellow members who are eager to share.

I am really impressed with Giskard's post #48. I think it really explains why he gets so frustrated with so many of us... instead of just lashing out with the punch line he gave us the back story... and I can see his point(s), but really we are here to enjoy ourselves and we need to keep that in perspective. I think debate and disagreement are fine, but I don't think we should say, "geez your dumb go away..."

The fact is, I don't know a damn thing about the sound of the W15GTI and based on what I've read on the forum I doubt I'll try one, but with careful reading of technical information posted by Giskard and others and mixing in some subjective comments from forum members, we can use our own personal filters and make these decisions for ourselves. I think most people understand that if they hear a rave review or see an RTA plot of this or that, their own "mileage may very" as one poster has said... I tend to learn by trying things out for myself and by frequently screwing up, and I imagine most of you do to. For some of us getting any sound at all out of our systems is pleasure enough and for freaks like myself, anything short of the very best I've ever heard is a disappointment. We all know where we stand along this continuum and we can make these decisions for ourselves.

My hope is that through discourse we can possibly better understand where we are all coming from and reduce some of the tension that has been lurking here... we all come here with differing levels of knowledge, ability, and interest... we also have different goals. For this thread we had a new individual that was specifically asking about the JBL S1S-EX and also what off the shelf sub would best work with his system... a seemingly simple enough question. We got off on the wrong foot when Giskard took offense to Steve G's posting about a non-JBL sub... in light of Giskard's last post I can see his point, however his hostile posts were really out of line... we need to give each other more of a benefit of the doubt, we can violently disagree, but when it gets personal the strength of the argument goes to hell and we get all mixed up in drama and countless pointless posts.

With this much confusion about a simple question like this, it's no wonder we try not to talk about politics here.:D

Widget

JuniorJBL

04-07-2006, 11:32 AM

Thank you Mr. Widget for your view. Also thanks to Giskard for a bit of insite to the problem!!:applaud:

Steve Gonzales

04-07-2006, 12:06 PM

Thanks for the reply.

So I take it that going with 2-4 S1S-EX/S800 combos in my 7500 cubic feet room will not result in a really earth shattering experience...

Please allow me to repeat what I'm looking for - pretty much a turnkey solution.

Does any consumer subwoofer come to your mind (whatever brand) that would be a good match for my system needs?

Thank you for your time. I agree with you Widget. I just don't want people left with the impression that I posted a suggestion that was not directly aimed at a question posed, on topic. Let's be clear here. My suggestion was quite clear and on point and prefaced in agreement with Giskard's recommendation of ultimately purchasing JBL product. If the posts were not deleted, they would show speculation as to the prospect of an Array 1800 sub being developed. That is why I suggested the Servo Drive until that model is available. I don't want another pissing match, but let there be no doubt what was said and why. It has been resolved between Giskard and I and his response had more to do with past conflict/friction personally than my on topic suggestion.

boputnam

04-07-2006, 12:25 PM

First and foremost this is the JBL Product Forum not DIY. The information here is supposed to be technically correct and not based on subjective opinions. You can post all the subjective opinions you want in DIY. This is supposed to be where specific drivers and there designed applications are discussed.Great post, Rob.

:idea:

Move the thread...

boputnam

04-07-2006, 01:26 PM

And yes, I do believe we are resolved.Yes, and possibly each independently, or so the syntax could suggest (and I know Giskard is always very careful with his)...

Zilch

04-07-2006, 04:52 PM

What might be valuable would be if those knowledgeable regarding the salient features distinguishing application-specific car audio woofers from home audio woofers were to initiate an informative expostion of that over in "Technical." I know zilch about it, and would be interested in learning....

Regarding this thread, I frankly have difficulty taking the increasingly common "Pimp My Ride" inquiries here seriously:

"What do I want: The meanest, most powerful, spectacular, deepest and all around frightening bass money can buy."

"I'm not on a strict budget BUT I want the most bang for the buck - and I mean BANG!"

"I want something "violent, brute". Super high potential SPL, low distortions."

"I want bass to sound - 'fierceful.'"

"It just has to be earthshattering."

"I want something with bragging rights included, something big, something fierce."

"May sound very childish to you but I need to be blown away just by the idea of owning something."

En puer eternus, apparently.

I certainly don't think it warrants a confrontation among the membership; inciting one's a prime objective of trolling, tho.

[Of course, I DO believe, in light of my own experience with such urges juvenile as blowing away the neighbors, I posted an informed response.... :p ]

Steve Gonzales

04-07-2006, 05:32 PM

I don't believe that thelion can be satisfied with the correct answer from Giskard. I agree with Zilch, this guy wants to "pimp his ride" in the end. He's been given an excellent informed opinion, but with all the different variables, I don't think one exists to satisfy his particular idea. It sounds like he might want this sub, housed in a rosewood veneered, 5" thick carbon fiber room. :D

robpatton

04-07-2006, 10:33 PM

I have used both of the subs previously mentioned. The Servo Drive ContraBass subs were installed into a Keith Yates Designed room in Reno, NV that I provided equipment for including a Runco 5000D, Genelec 1034B across the front, Triad in the sides and rear, etc. This room is PM3 certified and the Contras are powered by Crown K2 amps on each sub. They are a very powerful sub and cost 10000.00 per pair.

The S1S-EX subs were part of a Synthesis One system that was designed and installed in Nashville for a customer. Those are powered by S800 in bridged mode providing 800W to each sub at a cost of 5800.00 per pair.

The S1S-EX provides a very powerful low extension for the money, with the proper power it should do the trick for the K2SE pair that needs the additional low extension. The SEs were designed/tuned for Asia so I understand the need for more bass in certain situations/rooms. I get a kick out of switching them to BI-Amp mode and using external Xovers. I get MUCH more reponse from them and they go like a madman. The S1S should do the trick for you.

On the Contra and EX subs, Let me know if you need a place to get either one or if you have trouble finding a dealer in your area that can help out.

Attached is a picture of the room in Reno. Its a "drooler" and the finished room sounded simply spectacular. It should though...the room design alone cost upwards of 60K-80K.

Check out the K2s on Audiogon. I was the providing dealer for those speakers so if anyone picks them up from Dan, I can get them serviced if needed and provde the buyer the remainder of the Synthesis system if required.

Thanks! Feel free to email me anytime!

Rob Patton
Sonic Advantage
Orange Park Florida
[email protected]

Steve Gonzales

04-07-2006, 10:38 PM

Ahhh, those lucky devils. Nice to peek at something like that now and again.

Zilch

04-08-2006, 12:02 AM

Yeah, well, they've got the same cheap-ass VTech phone as me.... :p

[Why do they need towels in there? :blink: ]

Steve Gonzales

04-08-2006, 01:05 AM

He said it was a drooler :D .

hapy._.face

04-08-2006, 07:21 AM

Nice post Mr Widget.
Nice recovery Steve/Giskard
Nice dialogue Zilch
Nice use of the idea emoticon Bo
Nice sales pitch Rob P.
Nice try Todd...

:)

norealtalent

04-08-2006, 08:45 AM

Nice post Mr Widget.
Nice recovery Steve/Giskard
Nice dialogue Zilch
Nice use of the idea emoticon Bo
Nice sales pitch Rob P.
Nice try Todd...

:)

Nice...:D

moldyoldy

04-08-2006, 09:59 AM

I think a Freudian analysis would reveal that thelion doesn't really want to buy a sub at all, but is actually in the market for ADORATION.

Perhaps he'd get more satisfying results on myshitdontstink.comic.:bs:

Ian Mackenzie

04-08-2006, 10:11 AM

norealtalent

04-08-2006, 11:33 AM

I'm really tired of you guys trash talking my edirols ;)

boputnam

04-09-2006, 06:29 PM

He said it was a drooler :D .:applaud:

Beat me to that one!!

Kentium

11-20-2007, 02:49 AM

I don't mean to butt in with a non-JBL product suggestion but I stumbled upon this thread while trying to gather information about the Synthesis series. Impressive stuff, without a doubt. I'm only 19 but I've been a JBL fan since I can remember.

Anyway, if you're looking for something that will just blow your mind I suggest finding a shop where you can audition a Definitive Technology Supercube Trinity Signature. Frequency response touches down to 10 Hertz. Not too shabby, but I don't know much. A family friend said he knows a guy who bought one. It was shipped to his house via FedEx Freight and comes in wooden packaging because styrofoam and cardboard was simply not enough.

-Kent

Kentium

11-20-2007, 02:52 AM

http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/subwoofers/subwoofers.html#trinity

I think all of Definitive Technology's upper end products are very fine looking as well.

Titanium Dome

01-19-2009, 10:53 AM

All I can add is there is no Turnkey solution when it comes to loudspeakers and particularly subwoofers.

The problem is integration with the room and the main speakers. And even then I refuse to accept a sub that sounds really impressive is in fact for real. Maybe for HT but if that is the case you may need to look elsewhere.

My suggestion is just go buy one and try it out like the rest of us.

The only way to learn this stuff is to grow with it and that take time.

Nobody gets to dead right first time.

I'm looking at some "cheap" S1S-EX subs and have reviewed the relevant posts on this site. Ian's reply should have been first rather than near the end. Straight to the point IYAM.

To me, "turnkey" would be having enough money to pay someone to buy whatever was needed to make my room sound right, then I walk into a completed solution. Of course, that's not happening in my current reality, so it's trial, tweak, and error, trial, tweak, and error.

Always fun to romp through past threads and see everyone up to form. ;)

robertbartsch

01-20-2009, 02:09 PM

I don't understand the size of the room and where these subs will play.

At some point, I thought I read in this thread that the room was 8,000 square feet but I'm not sure. Obviously, if this is a measure of the rooms' length and width (e.g., the standard measure for real estate space, for example) this room would be a small auditorium, I suppose.

Anyway, can you please be more specific as to the (1) length, (2) width, and (3) height of the room?

A picture would be great!

What is a troll anyway?

Titanium Dome

01-20-2009, 02:18 PM

I don't think thelion is going to answer. His last visit was 09-09-2006.

Allanvh5150

01-20-2009, 04:41 PM

Maybe he stood too close to a 16Hz test tone and spontaniously combusted:)

Eaulive

10-19-2009, 05:25 PM

Just close couple four of those and it should be good enough for your home theater :D

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=173&MId=2

Titanium Dome

10-19-2009, 07:39 PM

Just close couple four of those and it should be good enough for your home theater :D

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=173&MId=2

Impressive sensitivity, but even so the S1S-EX would be my choice. There's just no practical application in a home setting for multiples of those 22x56x51,159 lb. monstrous horn enclosures. The S1S-EX is 31.5x21x22 at 129 lb.

Eaulive

10-19-2009, 08:06 PM

Impressive sensitivity, but even so the S1S-EX would be my choice. There's just no practical application in a home setting for multiples of those 22x56x51,159 lb. monstrous horn enclosures. The S1S-EX is 31.5x21x22 at 129 lb.

Er, it's 159kg... that's 351lbs :)

Definitely too big for a home setup but if you want earth shattering, 144dB from 22 to 250Hz should do it :bouncy:

rlsound

10-19-2009, 09:06 PM

" I am using 4 4645B's (which i think are very similar to the SIS's but I have no experience them, i just know you mentioned them in a post of mine when we were discussing the 4654 line of subs.) powered by 4 Crown's (bridged) in a 20' x 40 x 10 room (8000 cu. ft.) and believe me they are "earthshattering" ...:argue: "

I second this, with a suggestion;

Get a digital xover with the ability to create a " Stepdown mode " also known as a B6 filter.

Then get a LARGE amp ( Crest 7200 or QSC MX3000a ) and there's your insane bass.