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Rolf
04-01-2006, 08:25 AM
How is it that some political, religion's, different opinions threads are allowed while other is being closed or removed???

How is it that some "newbies" are swept away at their first question with something like: "We have been over this before" .. "read earlier threads, search.."?? .. And "why don't you open a new forum regarding this????" ... "we don't need this here". etc etc.

It might be the right time to get some rules for the moderators so that they can reply the same way whatever the place on earth they live.

It is certainly a time for some members to "chill out", and let the "newbies" feel welcome here or we will see a lot more of one, two ore three posting members here.

As I see it it is a fact that moderators from the US, Germany, AU, and so on react differently on the same subject.

I wish you all will take this question as a friendly question, as I believe there will come something good out of the discussion.

4313B
04-01-2006, 09:42 AM
Let's say you were really into Altec or JBL when you were a youngster. You had a few friends who also caught the bug and everyone spent time together designing and building their various projects using Altec and/or JBL components. Let's say you also forged friendships with people who worked at JBL or Altec. It was a great time.

Then you grew up and other responsibilities took center stage. Marriage, career, maybe kids. Fast forward twenty years and you're looking at those old Altec's or JBL's that have managed to travel through life with you and yours. You get on the Internet and start searching. Lo and behold you find Lansing Heritage (http://www.audioheritage.org/).

You find the forum and decide to join so you can see the photographs and perhaps post an experience or two. You tell your wife, your kids, your friends, maybe even your boss, that you found a really cool website devoted to what you consider to be a very important part of your past. They all know about your dedication to, and appreciation of, these Lansing products and they think it's great you've found what you think are like minded individuals.

Then some dumbasses start posting really stupid crap. Dildos, political garbage, spam, pictures that have virtually no relation to the scope of the site at all. You know, the usual hallmarks of something good gone bad. Then you add in a bunch of goofballs posting about censorship, lack of freedom of speech, lack of tolerance, racism, etc., etc. and basically shoveling grief on a few moderators who have nothing but the best intentions at heart. Now, you tell me whats wrong with that picture.

Read this and take it all in. Introduction (http://www.audioheritage.org/intro.htm)
Pretty benign don't you think? Get a feel for what the site is all about and then come back and tell me all this extracurricular bullshit has any validity. This site should absolutely remain a place where children and students can come and get information within the scope of the site. I really don't know how else to put it.

I will add that you've got a very decent bunch of moderators. I'll also tell you all that I'd personally put up with your garbage for oh, about five microseconds and then I'd delete all your posts and ban you permanently. :D

Oh, and you in the above post does not mean Rolf, unless Rolf thinks it applies to Rolf.

Ken Pachkowsky
04-01-2006, 10:50 AM
You pose some valid questions Rolf. I agree that each moderator has their own idea of what belongs here and what does not. Can we expect anything different? I believe that most, if not all use their best judgement when closing or removing posts. I don't always agree and have the right to say so.

For example, I was not offended by the recent photo's that were removed, but understood the moderators reason for doing so. However, I completely disagreed with the same moderator closing a thread when just a few posts back from announcing the close, he had participated in the discussion? I feel it would be wrong to publicly support one decision and keep silent about another.

Without getting to corny we all love this place cause we have a common bond that brought us here. JBL has played a significant roll in many of our lives, but life is not just about woofers and tweeters and who's circuit is better. What I have learned from this place is were all the same but different. I like the diversity in this group, as frustrating as it can be sometimes. One thing I have learned is many of us have strong opinions on a variety of subjects and that's a good thing. Many here love a good debate.

I enjoy the off topic area for the reasons above. It gives you insight as to who we are and why.

Keep it simple, if we don't want these types of discussions, remove the area all together. By all means keep it clean (for lack of a better term) but do not censor the exchange of ideas, we have much to learn from our fellow man.

Ken

Ken Pachkowsky
04-01-2006, 10:58 AM
This site should absolutely remain a place where children and students can come and get information within the scope of the site. I really don't know how else to put it.

I will add that you've got a very decent bunch of moderators.

I agree in principal Giskard. Based on your opinion the Off Topic area should be closed permanently. Is that your feeling?

Ken

4313B
04-01-2006, 11:07 AM
Based on your opinion the Off Topic area should be closed permanently. Is that your feeling?

KenThe off-topic area is "ok" if normal people post in it. The people who had issues with Bo moderating it should probably kill themselves. At least that's what I'd like to see happen.

Can you tell I'm a wee bit disgusted Ken?

Ken Pachkowsky
04-01-2006, 11:18 AM
Can you tell I'm a wee bit disgusted Ken?

I can appreciate your feelings, I have the utmost respect for Bo and he knows that. I simply disagreed with his decision to close the thread. The day I can't express that, is the day I will leave ( I simply refuse to kill myself though):D

In closing, I thought your post was articulate and well put and agreed with much of its content.

Ken

norealtalent
04-01-2006, 11:27 AM
:rotfl:

"You know... life isn't for everyone." :p

Had to cut and paste this before it disappears!:applaud:

Ken Pachkowsky
04-01-2006, 11:49 AM
[quote=Giskard]:rotfl:
"You know... life isn't for everyone." :p
:p[/quote

Admitadly funny!

Anyway, enough on this. Its not that big a deal, just answering Rolf's post.

Have a good one all, its off to work I go.

Ken

boputnam
04-01-2006, 12:12 PM
However, I completely disagreed with the same moderator closing a thread when just a few posts back from announcing the close, he had participated in the discussion? I don't follow that logic - not that I need to, but was called out to defend the action.

For those not following this script so closely, the thread started as a nice (really) nice picturebook about people and places most of you have not seen. There was some political and cultural liner notes. All of it mostly very interesting. Then there were two pictures that were off-color, and while arguably not so bad in themselves, they elicited some very - shall we say - turgid replies. It wasn't pretty. So, they and the inciting pictures were deep-sixed. Then we got back on topic, but only briefly before we spun wildly off center about pollution and the book of Revelation. The Thread was becoming a stream of consciousness - anyone's, and anything. In those instances, we tend to Close.

Sure, I partipated, but so what - that means I can't close it? :blink: Even I know when to shut up. ;) The thing had been there long enough, and was over.

If you guys want an End of the World Thread, start one <edit: never mind, I did it for you: End of the World>.
This way, northwoods is able to start "picturebook II", if he is so inclined.

4313B
04-01-2006, 12:18 PM
If you guys want an End of the World Thread, start one.Only if someone mentions the L100 or L220 again. Then let's crack the planet in half with several of Dr. Evil's deep drilling nukes. Fair enough?

norealtalent
04-01-2006, 12:24 PM
Or cut the tops off a 250. ;) :thmbsup:

Mr. Widget
04-01-2006, 12:48 PM
How is it that some political, religion's, different opinions threads are allowed while other is being closed or removed???I think you miss the point of our attempts at moderation. We don't select one ideology over another and delete those we disagree with... even among the current lineup of moderators we have a wide range of political and religious beliefs. We step in if forum members become rude to each other or post material that is blatantly offensive. Sure we all have different opinions as to what is blatantly offensive... and maybe sometimes the threshold is set too high or low, but overall I think we are willing to accept a fair amount moderately distasteful material.

As you may recall I was not in favor of the Off Off Topic thread's creation in the first place as I thought it would encourage off color posts... I now think I was wrong. I think it is fine that we now have a proper sewer for all of the crap to be posted in. ;) I personally don't follow the threads down there, but I think it is good that it gives an avenue for those so inclined. I was asked by a fellow forum member to delve into the sewer a few weeks back to delete a thread... I checked it out and was shocked to see graphic photos of someone killing a kitten. I deleted it. That was obviously over the line, but if someone wants to post photos of their recent trip, or start a thread about how they restored their car or whatever, we now have a proper place for it. If on that thread people start name calling or show photos of their naked girlfriend in the car we (most likely Bo) will take action.


Widget

hapy._.face
04-01-2006, 04:32 PM
I wouldn't want to be a moderator. It seems like a babysitting job. Hats off to you guys. :)

May I suggest an open protocol? Perhaps if the moderators could re-direct the path of certain threads, it may be fine to keep it going and let it evolve. Some threads take on a life all their own...


How about a 'hey guys- let's keep this ON topic, OK?'
Or a 'that is completely unacceptable material for this forum- I deleted that post. If anyone else posts something like that- consider yourself banned for a few weeks. Carry on.'

To address/add to Rolf's original concerns:
I noticed how some people openly name call and make threats (indirect or otherwise) and those posts are still in print. Why do we have forum rules if they are not fully enforced?

All I know is- I try to respect the fact that this forum is in dedication to a man. I consider his family, and the contributions he made to society before I type or post something outwardly filthy.

Ken Pachkowsky
04-01-2006, 04:35 PM
I checked it out and was shocked to see graphic photos of someone killing a kitten. I deleted it. That was obviously over the line, but if someone wants to post photos of their recent trip, or start a thread about how they restored their car or whatever, we now have a proper place for it. If on that thread people start name calling or show photos of their naked girlfriend in the car we (most likely Bo) will take action.


Widget

And so he should.

Its easy to get clipped on the chin when you are not afraid to voice an opinion. Read it and make your own judgement. I did, voiced mine and will continue to do so. Widget has the right idea.

I have a solution. Make the area non public and that way only those that want to access the off topic area can do so. I still believe it should be monitored for the above reasons. Pornography and dead kittens don't turn my crank, but others political views and opinions do.

Let me be clear. I am not outraged by this but merely pointing out what I believe was an error. Thats all.
Ken

Ian Mackenzie
04-01-2006, 05:53 PM
How is it that some "newbies" are swept away at their first question with something like: "We have been over this before" .. "read earlier threads, search.."?? .. And "why don't you open a new forum regarding this????" ... "we don't need this here". etc etc.


It is certainly a time for some members to "chill out", and let the "newbies" feel welcome here or we will see a lot more of one, two ore three posting members here.

As I see it it is a fact that moderators from the US, Germany, AU, and so on react differently on the same subject.

.

Rolf,

I understand your concerns.

Taking the last point first, the moderators often discuss a post or poster before even considering any action, and as a rule they usually agree on an issue.

About the newbies everyone needs a certain amount of orientation in a new place. Given the rate of growth in membership and active posters I think this is a healthy sign.

I myself tend not to post much these days unless I feel I can actually add something new to the table and I am inclined not to repeat myself and often will refer to the search function or a link. We all had to do this when we first joined and it makes you realise the forums are a real treasure of knowledge for those who bother to look.

There actually wasn't anything at the start, and a huge slab of what we have now is a legacy from Giskard. I doubt it any newbies appreciate that.



Ian

Titanium Dome
04-01-2006, 06:15 PM
There isn't a person here giving advice or opinions who hasn't had to modify or delete a post after putting something in writing. There isn't a person here who hasn't been PMed once or twice about the contents of a post, whether by a moderator or another member. There are probably very few who haven't had a post disappear as a moderator cleaned up a thread, locked it, or deleted it. Probably most of us also have posts locked in time that we'd wish to remove now if we could.

I'm sure I've seen each moderator implode or explode at least once under the double stress of being both a moderator and human at the same time. Heck, a few of us have been threatened with suspension or even been suspended.

It's normal to make mistakes, it's normal to exercise bad judgment, and it's normal to cross over the line in the quest for attention. That's why we need moderators, to moderate the foolishness and indiscretions that are part of human nature. Honest to God, I don't know why either the fact that people aren't perfect or the fact that communities need policing are surprising to anyone (or the fact that police aren't perfect and will make mistakes, too).

Rolf asked legitimate questions. He offered some mild suggestions. He assured everyone his intent was friendly. Not everything he got in return was in the same spirit.

We've been down this road a few times. Here's a recent one:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8933

The focus of this discussion is wrong if we're thinking of calling posters out, calling them names, asking them to leave, or suggesting they perish. It's also wrong if we're thinking of moderators as dictators, hypocrites, and two-faced. Neither of those is the problem; they are symptoms.

This place, this wonderful place, has grown far beyond expectations, or even comfort for some. It's never going to get back to what it was, even if there were a purge of the great unwashed and only the saints got to stay.

So, let's face facts. The current moderators have too much to watch over, too many things to check, too many holes in the dike that need fingers occasionally. The key to stopping this stuff is to get to it early, deal with it clearly, and move on quickly.

I'm convinced that more moderators are needed to reduce the workload. We increased them some time ago, and we need to do it again. If this results in better coverage and quicker action, then many of these difficulties will be reduced.

Not perfect, not a Utopia, just better...

4313B
04-01-2006, 07:24 PM
I'm convinced that more moderators are needed to reduce the workload. We increased them some time ago, and we need to do it again. If this results in better coverage and quicker action, then many of these difficulties will be reduced.I'm convinced we have enough moderators.

What we are really looking for is more forum members who understand what the website is all about and who have a clue as to what is appropriate to post on such a website. All the guys at Harman and JBL know what to post about should they choose to do so. They have a thorough understanding of what the website is about and they contribute wholeheartedly to it. I have yet to see them contribute any off-color jokes, inappropriate pictures, etc., etc. It's simply never even been hinted at it's so completely inconceivable.

Now imagine for a moment what Greg Timbers would say if he saw a picture of dildos on the Lansing Heritage website while he was showing co-workers the site. What would Mark Gander think? Imagine any of the Japanese delegation going back last week and showing this website to co-workers or friends there.

In any case, I have to agree with Mr. Widget. The holler to waller in has been graciously created. Maybe we do need to make it accessible to only those who request access. Other forums have definitely created members-only and/or access-as-requested-only portions of their forums. Naturally I think it is pathetic a site like this needs that but whatever...

Mr. Widget
04-01-2006, 07:44 PM
So, let's face facts. The current moderators have too much to watch over, too many things to check, too many holes in the dike that need fingers occasionally. The key to stopping this stuff is to get to it early, deal with it clearly, and move on quickly.You keep asking for more moderators, more moderation rules, more...

The way I see it we get complaints for too much moderation not too little... I think these discussion forums run along pretty well as they are currently set up and think more moderators would add to the problem not fix it. If there is a problem that someone sees they should simply send a message to a moderator and let them fix it.

Additional rules? I really don't think we want to be like Congress and pass legislation on top of legislation...

As for two faced, hypocritical, inconsistency... for better or worse we are all human... we try to be consistent and even handed, it just doesn't always work out that way... by and large I'd submit we are reasonably successful.


Widget

Robh3606
04-01-2006, 07:48 PM
What we are really looking for is more forum members who understand what the website is all about and who have a clue as to what is appropriate to post on such a website. All the guys at Harman and JBL know what to post about should they choose to do so. They have a thorough understanding of what the website is about and they contribute wholeheartedly to it. I have yet to see them contribute any off-color jokes, inappropriate pictures, etc., etc. It's simply never even been hinted at it's so completely inconceivable.

Now imagine for a moment what Greg Timbers would say if he saw a picture of dildos on the Lansing Heritage website while he was showing co-workers the site. What would Mark Gander think? Imagine any of the Japanese delagation going back last week and showing this website to co-workers or friends there.


Thanks I couldn't have said it better

Or my 15 year old for that matter.

"Hey dad I thought that was a speaker site??? What's that doing on there"

Rob:blink:

Ducatista47
04-01-2006, 07:58 PM
Pathetic or not, the off topic Forum as an access by request feature seems to me a workable and desirable concept. Keeping it from the eyes of visitors seeking on topic material is one great idea.

Clark in Peoria

Robh3606
04-01-2006, 08:02 PM
You know what would make my time as a Moderator and a Forum Member much more enjoyable??? Never having to use my Moderation Privileges. I really don't come here to be a Moderator. I come because I enjoy my hobby the site and the people here. If anything the Moderation is about the only reason I get the feeling of dread when I see another spat between members or an Off Topic post that's over the edge. It can take hours in PM's behind the scenes to clean it all up. That's not counting what goes on in the Forums. That is not fun.

Rob:)

boputnam
04-01-2006, 08:05 PM
The key to stopping this stuff is to get to it early, deal with it clearly, and move on quickly.:hmm: Interesting.

Every damned time we try to do just that, we are called-out on it.

Fickle bunch out here... :(


-----

Fair warning: The most recent moderator actions have elicited far too much discussion over nothing. What Ti-dome now suggests (quoted here) is what moderators do. To paraphrase from Forest Gump: "Common sense is as common sense does". I'll call 'em as I sees 'em, and make the tough calls. You all can debate them - I won't engage in further discussion, nor defend the action other than that in italics under "Reason for deletion". That will have to be sufficient. My actions can always be overruled without me, but thus far, I believe the record reflects my sensibilities. We all have far better things to do here, and elsewhere.

No go on, build some damned speakers!! :bash:

Robh3606
04-01-2006, 08:11 PM
:hmm: Interesting.

Every damned time we try to do just that, we are called-out on it.

Fickle bunch out here... :(


You feel that way too??? I thought it was just me.

Rob:)

Ducatista47
04-01-2006, 08:17 PM
Maybe we can all help out the moderators. Tonight I deleted a post of mine from yesterday. I thought about it - there is a concept - and decided it was nearly pointless and completely useless. Members, lend these guys a hand and help Rob to enjoy life here once again.

Clark in Peoria

Titanium Dome
04-01-2006, 08:20 PM
You keep asking for more moderators, more moderation rules, more...

The way I see it we get complaints for too much moderation not too little... I think these discussion forums run along pretty well as they are currently set up and think more moderators would add to the problem not fix it. If there is a problem that someone sees they should simply send a message to a moderator and let them fix it.

Additional rules? I really don't think we want to be like Congress and pass legislation on top of legislation...

As for two faced, hypocritical, inconsistency... for better or worse we are all human... we try to be consistent and even handed, it just doesn't always work out that way... by and large I'd submit we are reasonably successful.


Widget

Even though I wrote it myself, I reread my post a couple of times to be sure. I made no suggestion to add rules, so why the big deal about it?

I did recommend adding moderators, so that was correct.

As for the "more..." that you imply I'm asking for, I just don't see it there. I made a single recommendation.

As for your last comment, it's a nice synopsis of what I wrote. I agree with you and simply would add, Many hands make light work. :)

Robh3606
04-01-2006, 08:23 PM
Members, lend these guys a hand and help Robb to enjoy life here once again.

Thanks Clark I am fine just frustrated is all. I have my 4344 up and running so all is good. Biggest damn computer speakers I ever saw!

Rob:)

Don C
04-01-2006, 09:08 PM
I have done a touch of moderating on other sites, and I am often faced with a dillema. I see something that's not appropriate, and I want to just delete it. But I know that if I do, there will be some griping, and deleting the item might lead to more discussion of the topic that I wanted to get rid of in the first place. So sometimes I just decide to leave an item alone and hope it just gets buried by other posts soon.
Sometimes that works. But sometimes it backfires. Then I get someone following the first guy with a post that's even worse than the first. Go to delete that one, and then there's griping that I deleted one but not the other, and it gets out of hand and I have a lot of mad people on both sides. See, even though we are providing something valuable for free, if there's anything that anyone can think up to complain about, there will be complaints anyway. Like we have right here. What a thankless job the moderating job is.

Ken Pachkowsky
04-01-2006, 09:34 PM
Like we have right here.

Point taken. I am out of this discussion as I will always be tempted to answer "just one more time". As much as I love JBL, audio and music its nice to share other interests. I will follow the rules, just tell me what they are. If all we want is audio related topics, I can live with that and I am sure others can too.

You guys control the site. Make a decision, set the rules and that's that. I don't think anyone here was forced to be a moderator. I suspect it's a responsibility that most enjoy, otherwise why do it? I am sure others would welcome the responsibility. Perhaps moderators should be put on a mandatory rotation? This way the work load will be distributed more evenly.

Hmm, I see T Dome already made this suggestion.

Ken

Rolf
04-02-2006, 12:44 AM
Hi fellows.

I will not comment much from the posts in this thread after my original question, just make a summary and clear up some misunderstandings.

It is my clear meaning that no threads/posts should be about politics, religion, pornography or similar sensitive subject on this site. That was why I asked the question, because there has been some of this lately and some has been removed, some not. I never meant it should be more allowed.

Regarding the moderators, they have my greatest respect, and I believe they know so. What I suggested was simply that there should be a set of rules so that removing or closing a thread/post is done by the same criteria, and not only by personal feelings. If you run a company you can't have co-workers dealing with the customers in different ways, there has to be company rules.

When I read the comments to my question in this thread it is clear to me that there are at least 2 ways the members want to have this forum. One is the way that the forum should only be dedicated to "the serious stuff". Another way, and what I believe the majority of the members want is to be able to ask questions, no matter how stupid they may seem for some of us, and get a decent answer. When I joined this forum years ago and posted my first question I had no idea that there even was a search function or other ways to look for answers. I consider myself lucky as there was nobody that called me names or swept me off by telling me to do things I had no idea about. If that had been the case i doubt I would have been here for long.

Regarding the "Off Topic" section I believe it is a great place for members around the world to get to "know each other", maybe for future meeting. It is also a good place to be informed, and to inform about all things that surrounds us in our daily life. Like a guide you can use if you plan a holiday f.ex.

I will not follow those who has the opinion that the "Off Topic" is "dirt", "crap" or worse and continue to put small or big events in my life here. I will also encourage all other members to do the same. Those who don't want to read it can simply choose not to. What I might do is not to post so often in the "serious threads", as it seems my comments is not so welcome there.

Well friends, that's all from me in this thread.

Have a nice day.

Mr. Widget
04-02-2006, 01:40 AM
Even though I wrote it myself, I reread my post a couple of times to be sure. I made no suggestion to add rules, so why the big deal about it?I guess I read more into what you were saying than was there. As for the more, more, bit... I thought you had posted references to your original post about moderator training and limiting numbers of posts etc. at couple of times prior to the one in this thread... maybe someone sent me the link or something... it just seemed like I had seen it a number of times and got it already.

My point is, is this place so terrible? Taken on the surface it feels like a small group of perhaps six people are dissatisfied with the status quo... considering we are made up of people from so many walks of life and cultures from all over the world, I think the place functions pretty damned well. I must confess I don't understand the gripes, but I hope we can focus on the positive and move forward.

Rolf, about the Off Off Topic area, I have said that I was wrong and I now do think an Off Off Topic area is a good idea... I personally do enjoy discussions of non audio subjects with people who I have gotten to know and consider my friends... and as Ken Pachkowsky mentioned it can be fun to express differing political viewpoints... for me an intellectual discussion isn't "crap" it can be stimulating and valuable. I find it immensely interesting how well educated conservatives can hold to their beliefs... that said, there is plenty in the Off Off Topic area that is far from stimulating or valuable. I have probably missed some nuggets because I don't have the patience to wade through the stuff I have no interest in... I simply choose not to go there, it is my choice and the beauty of having a specialized area for those topics... it makes it rather easy to avoid.


Widget

norealtalent
04-02-2006, 08:02 AM
... We step in if forum members become rude to each other or post material that is blatantly offensive. Sure we all have different opinions as to what is blatantly offensive... and maybe sometimes the threshold is set too high or low...
Widget

It's pretty simple, moderate yourselves and nobody will have to do it for you. I didn't say it was easy, just simple. :blah:

4313B
04-02-2006, 09:48 AM
It's pretty simple, moderate yourselves and nobody will have to do it for you.You got it. That way I don't have to cuss and bust heads together. What a relief that would be! :yes:

Robh3606
04-02-2006, 10:03 AM
It's pretty simple, moderate yourselves and nobody will have to do it for you.

Exactly, makes it more enjoyable for all.

Rob:)

BMWCCA
04-02-2006, 10:13 AM
Hesitant to waste even more bandwidth on the topic, let me just say as a long-time lurker, recent poster, the moderators on this forum do a superb job maintaining a balance that allows enough camaraderie in light-hearted exchange without ruining the main purpose of these forums which is (I shouldn't have to even say it) to supply and share JBL information. My hat is off to you all.

There are myriad places on the Web to exchange random thoughts, self-aggrandizing posts, or to display unrelated handiwork. I'm not against knowing more about the folks on this forum but when the noise level approaches that of a Personals section, enough is enough. Those of us who don't contribute to the noise won't miss what gets lost in moderation and those who do can always take it elsewhere. An opt-in Off-Off-Topic forum may solve the problem but really shouldn't be necessary. As a moderator on an unrelated forum, I'm aware what a thankless job it can be. But I also know the best forums in which I'm involved are those that are moderated.

Thanks again for all you do and the service all the Heritage forums supply.
:applaud:
-Phil

Rolf
04-02-2006, 11:18 AM
I promised to let this thread go away by itself with never to comment further. It is for me hard to do but I stay away. Some people will get a pm. Sorry.

Ken Pachkowsky
04-02-2006, 11:53 AM
My point is, is this place so terrible? Taken on the surface it feels like a small group of perhaps six people are dissatisfied with the status quo... considering we are made up of people from so many walks of life and cultures from all over the world, I think the place functions pretty damned well. I must confess I don't understand the gripes, but I hope we can focus on the positive and move forward.

for me an intellectual discussion isn't "crap" it can be stimulating and valuable. I find it immensely interesting how well educated conservatives can hold to their beliefs... that said, there is plenty in the Off Off Topic area that is far from stimulating or valuable. I have probably missed some nuggets because I don't have the patience to wade through the stuff I have no interest in... I simply choose not to go there, it is my choice and the beauty of having a specialized area for those topics... it makes it rather easy to avoid.

Widget

Great post Widget. I tried to edit down the quote but you hit the nail on the head. Please don't count me as dissatisfied. On the contrary, as stated previously in the thread, I enjoy the diversity of this group. I also agree there is plenty of garbage in an off topic area. Although feeling the posts in question were dealt with properly, the thread should not have been closed. I have noticed that questioning what a moderator does can be misconstrued as a personal attack, or overall disrespect of their responsibilities and contributions. That is not the case and I trust we are all mature enough to understand that.

Ken

Mr. Widget
04-02-2006, 12:38 PM
...Although feeling the posts in question were dealt with properly, the thread should not have been closed.I have no idea as I haven't looked at that thread since it was moved into the Off Off Topic area... I did see a handful of interesting images when it was first posted... I gather from Bo's comments that it changed course.

I really don't understand what's the big deal about closing questionable threads... whatever needs to be said that hasn't already can certainly be said in a new thread. I just don't understand why people get so upset when a meandering thread gets closed... how are two or three meandering threads somehow worse than one longer one?


I have noticed that questioning what a moderator does can be misconstrued as a personal attack, or overall disrespect of their responsibilities and contributions.It is hard not to take it that way... we don't edit posts, delete posts, or close threads lightly... we take this stuff very seriously and give it a lot of thought and do a lot of soul searching before we take these actions, so then when someone comes along and questions it as though we just carelessly made a stupid blunder it does feel personal. I guess it shouldn't... but I know in my case it usually does... of course it may be the PMs calling me a stupid SOB that make me take it personally. Ok, I just made that part up, other than a few death threats no one so far has called me a stupid SOB. I see my PM box filling already.:D


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4313B
04-02-2006, 01:00 PM
of course it may be the PMs calling me a stupid SOB that make me take it personallyTurn PM's off. Of course then they'll just catch you with the "Report Bad Post" feature. :rotfl:

hapy._.face
04-02-2006, 02:59 PM
... how are two or three meandering threads somehow worse than one longer one?

...don't we want to keep the sewer consolidated into one drain pipe? :)

Mr. Widget
04-02-2006, 04:36 PM
...don't we want to keep the sewer consolidated into one drain pipe? :)I assume that isn't an actual question, rather a joke of some kind?

If you are asking my opinion, I don't really care what goes on down there as long as it doesn't back up... yes the play on words is my attempt at humor but it is also a serious answer.:)


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hapy._.face
04-02-2006, 04:46 PM
I assume that isn't an actual question, rather a joke of some kind?

It's a joke- one I thought you (in particular) would find humor in. Thank you for clarifying (I wish more people did this!)



If you are asking my opinion, I don't really care what goes on down there as long as it doesn't back up... yes the play on words is my attempt at humor but it is also a serious answer.:) Widget

:p Perhaps we need a septic tank.

boputnam
04-02-2006, 06:23 PM
:p Perhaps we need a septic tank.We got one - "Off Topic"... :barf:

Except the picturebooks - I enjoy them. :applaud:

Steve Gonzales
04-02-2006, 11:19 PM
I've been a small part of this forum for a couple of years and have seen my fair share of trouble. I've seen some good improvement in the moderation here recently, yet, I've often wondered how a handful of people seem to get away with outragous comments, tantrums and rude behavior and then some people get their posts deleted or their threads closed and they don't even approach that level of behavior?. Yet that type of bias doesn't ever get addressed. A double standard of sorts. There is one particular person that has started more trouble and said more crap to alot of different members, I can't believe he's still here, yet he is held in high regard because of his 'contributions' , what does that say to the rest of the membership when it is just quietly swept under the rug and that's that?. I know that this is a can of worms to open, but in my opinion, based on what I've seen, it is correct. Having said that, if you are not accutely aware of this, I'm sure that there are members on the other side of the fence that are, and judge some of the moderation here as biased for those kinds of reasons, to some degree. Moderators should be just that, moderators, trying to bring a level fairness to an issue without censorship unless it is vulgar, pornographic or threatening. I've come to understand that there is a pecking order here and that some can get away with murder and some better toe the line or else. I am not condeming the whole moderating team, only if the shoe fits. If you can say to yourself: " I treat everyone's opinion equally", then I'm not talking about you. If you can handle the question to yourself without having to think too long before the answer is yes or have to qualify the yes, I applaud you:applaud:. I've been tempted to get into a flame war a couple of times here recently, but have chosen to take the high ground and not get pulled into someone's twisted idea of a 'discussion'. This is still a wonderful site to enjoy. I hope my frank opinion isin't taken as a blanket put down across the board, it is not meant to be and I think I've made that quite clear in the details of this post. I will be the first to admit that I've done my share of damage in the past but have tried my very best to be nice and/or apologize if I sense I've offended someone. All members should ask themselves : "Could I handle my responses to a fellow member better?" and "Is there a more tactful way of handling situations that annoy or bother me, better?. I have done this, have you?. Equal consideration is what I am talking about, not perfection. You can't please all of the people all of the time, for sure. I thank each member for letting me speak freely, now I have to go put on my asbestos, Regards, Steve Gonzales

Mr. Widget
04-03-2006, 12:35 AM
I've been tempted to get into a flame war a couple of times here recently, but have chosen to take the high ground and not get pulled into someone's twisted idea of a 'discussion'. Thank you for not letting your emotions get you into a flame war... we've all had those urges. At times it can be pretty damned difficult to just step away...

I've sent you a PM with my take on the situation. We are all still learning here...:D


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4313B
04-03-2006, 05:05 AM
There is one particular person that has started more trouble and said more crap to alot of different members, I can't believe he's still hereWho is it? We'll take them up with Don.

Ken Pachkowsky
04-03-2006, 07:46 AM
I've been a small part of this forum for a couple of years etc

Great post Steve.

Ken

4313B
04-03-2006, 08:18 AM
Great post Steve.Then we completely disagree on what a great post is. I consider this just another shot from the 0.01% of the forum that simply doesn't get the age old adage - "When in Rome..."

Isn't there a website you guys can all go to and commiserate? An AOL chat room or something? We've got this list, and it's a really short list, especially considering the current membership count, and I'm wondering why you guys keep coming here to a place you are obviously conflicted with.

I'm just not getting it. We create off-topic and then catch hell for deleting a few inappropriate posts. Who decides what is inappropriate? Don does, and by his charge the moderators do! What the hell!? It's Don's site! If he had a problem with the moderation he would call the moderators and discuss it. Let's get back to the business at hand instead of constantly dragging this tired old topic out for endless discussion.

Ken Pachkowsky
04-03-2006, 08:23 AM
Then we completely disagree on

My friend, I suspect we disagree on many things outside of our passion for all that is JBL. But we can share that.

Ken

4313B
04-03-2006, 08:36 AM
My friend, I suspect we disagree on many things outside of our passion for all that is JBL.I don't even bother to contemplate such things. It is out of the scope of this website.

norealtalent
04-03-2006, 08:44 AM
..."When in Rome..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_in_Rome_Do_as_the_Vandals

:wave:

hapy._.face
04-03-2006, 08:49 AM
Damn, the logo is everywhere- and yet we are so caught up in the trivial aspects of what this forum ultimately strives to achieve. We all love our JBL products and (as Ken said) 'we can share that'. Where the hell is this 'pub' we all talk about!?

Yesterday, I made a post that hinted at (what I perceive to be) favoritism with regard to moderating. It was more suggestive than accusitive, and yet perhaps I should delete it. I have the highest respect for those that give the "extra" to make this site/forum a special place to be and learn. I learned something yet again:

I should focus on what this place IS rather than what it
a. could be
b. should be (IMO)
c. isn't

The fact is- if someone is posting something negative that involves me- I can hold my ground. I don't need a moderator to come rescue me. It's nice when they do because (to quote Bo) it keeps 'a sense of decorum'.


Giskard,

You inarguably contributed more than most anyone to get this site where it is. As such- you are targeted more than most anyone. Truth is- I don't care if you call some one a 'dumbass'. You can call me a dumbass, and it makes no difference to me. It's a double standard for sure- but so long as you keep posting the tech and advice...

boputnam
04-03-2006, 09:16 AM
(post deleted - never mind...) :blah:

Don C
04-03-2006, 11:30 AM
Let's get back to the business at hand instead of constantly dragging this tired old topic out for endless discussion.
Now that's a good post.

hapy._.face
04-03-2006, 04:59 PM
I received a couple of PM's regarding what my intentions were in my previous post. Let me spell it out:

I don't want to come off sounding cynical but I want my children to know (early on) that life is not always fair. Inherently, life cannot always be fair. The food chain, governments, weather, natural disasters, etc are not fair. (Why should this forum be any different?) The sooner people learn that- the more prepared they are (IMHO). It's nice to keep leaders in line, but I try not to belly ache over every little injustice. Life's too short for that.

When I am in a leadership role, and the position of power is on my chest- I strive for equality and fairness in every way I can. I believe in division of goods. It is one of my core values. "Respect for others" is another core value I hold near and dear. From what I have observed- there are a few great moderators that strive for the same things. That's great! However, anytime that position of power lies with other people- I cannot simply EXPECT them to operate as I would. I cannot expect that people have the same values I do.

If someone wants to call me names or attack me on the forum- so what (?). It's a reflection on them - not me. It's also a reflection on their lack of respect for James B. Lansing.

Does this mean I won't defend myself? Naaa! I'll go toe to toe with anyone. If a moderator is snoozing for whatever reason- I'll play vigilante until the post/thread gets deleted. ;)

Mr. Widget
04-03-2006, 05:13 PM
I'll play vigilante until the post/thread gets deleted. ;) Please don't.

That is exactly the type of thing that gets us into wasting time with threads like this... as I mentioned to Steve last night in a PM... if you see an offense send a PM to a Moderator or to several moderators... you can PM up to 10 people at once here... By acting on your own it clouds the issue... all of a sudden instead of one jerk we have two or more. One person yelling into the wind looks pretty dumb... if you respond we spiral into the sort of abyss that we have seen too many times.


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hapy._.face
04-03-2006, 05:15 PM
Please don't.

That is exactly the type of thing that gets us into wasting time with threads like this... as I mentioned to Steve last night in a PM... if you see an offense send a PM to a Moderator or to several moderators... you can PM up to 10 people at once here... By acting on your own it clouds the issue... all of a sudden instead of one jerk we have two or more. One person yelling into the wind looks pretty dumb... if you respond we spiral into the sort of abyss that we have seen too many times.


Widget


Ok. :)

oldschool
04-03-2006, 10:47 PM
Somebody posted a picture killing a kitten,tell me it wasn't a member.That's weak.

louped garouv
04-04-2006, 03:21 PM
Somebody posted a picture killing a kitten

as i recall the post did not have a picture of a kitten being killed, if you followed the link there were a series of pictures that were somewhat/pretty graphic (BTW there was a warning that the link went to pages that we not for animal lovers that are faint of heart)

Also, i recall the point of the post was to try and determine what was being typed (it was in a foreign language) and said about the graphic photos...

sorry about that post (and some others, that were IMO humourous) that disappeared

also for the record, anyone can delete all my posts if it is deemed necessary or prudent, I won't mind


also btw, I think you have to be a member to post at all...

oldschool
04-05-2006, 02:01 PM
i did'nt see the post or link, just what i read on this forum .But what is the point,for such links on this forum,in my 57 years i have never been called faint of heart.semper fi.

louped garouv
04-05-2006, 02:14 PM
But what is the point,for such links on this forum,in my 57 years i have never been called faint of heart.semper fi.

First off, Thanks for your service to our Country. maybe 'faint of heart' wasn't the proper phrase for me to use. sorry about that

as to why i posted the link here....

this is really the forum with the most international members that I hang out on frequently.... I was trying to find out if the pics were a hoax or not; and what was being typed/said about the pics... the website/photos were obviously stirring quite the controversy in it's country of origin (judging solely from the exclamations, bold type and large fonts)

in the end, I was just trying to get some quick and easy help breaking the language barrier. here seemed like a good place at the time when i first saw the link; so i posted it....

FWIW I did not raise any objections when the thread got whacked. not one complaint or nasty PM from me at all...

For the record, I have also been quick to revise my posts when PM'd by moderators or other interested individuals

Mr. Widget
04-05-2006, 02:19 PM
When the posting with that link was pointed out to me I spent a nanosecond deciding whether or not it was a hoax... I decided it didn't matter. I hope for the sake of the kitten it was, but the fact is that it was about as horrible a thing as I have ever seen... I have seen some pretty bad stuff too. Even if it was fake, and I doubt it, it had no business being passed along though our site.


I agree that this is a wide ranging International site, and that is a wonderful thing, but next time maybe the "research" can be done via PMs.


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louped garouv
04-05-2006, 02:20 PM
point taken