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rcpmac
10-23-2003, 02:41 PM
Sorry, I am reposting this as my first try ended up in the FS forum
I have a couple of pairs of L-100's in good condition. What is the advisability of using one pair for my sons rook group PA system. It will be driven by an onkyo 100 watt integrated amp and the source signal will be 3 akg microphones through a high end yamaha mixer.
Aside from the sacreligous aspects of this idea, what are the technical merits?
Thanks,
Chris

scott fitlin
10-23-2003, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by rcpmac
Sorry, I am reposting this as my first try ended up in the FS forum
I have a couple of pairs of L-100's in good condition. What is the advisability of using one pair for my sons rook group PA system. It will be driven by an onkyo 100 watt integrated amp and the source signal will be 3 akg microphones through a high end yamaha mixer.
Aside from the sacreligous aspects of this idea, what are the technical merits?
Thanks,
Chris Not a good idea, in my honest opinion. You see live audio with musicians produces signal far above that from recorded music! Now If you go to a concert and you see the equipment they work with you notice lots of compressors and limiters! A singer screams into the mic, the limiter catches it, and keeps it to a safe level. The bass guitarist hammers the E string, and this signal is considerably stronger than any signal on a record or CD! Its very easy to overdrive your amps with live music to way higher than normal levels and this is why Musical Instrument speakers are made to withstand such abuse!

The L 100,s are Bookshelf speakers designed to play pre recorded music and are not designed to handle the abuse live music dishes out. Your speakers could be blown quite easily.

rcpmac
10-23-2003, 03:08 PM
Just to clarify, this would be for voice only and not sound reinforcment of the instruments.
Aren't the component drivers originaly those of studio monitors?

Wouldn't they have been subjected to non-compressed signals as well?

Isn't there some output limit provided with the 50w /Channel amp? The amp, (Onykyo A-7040,) has meters that show output in green, with RED leds between 50w and 100w per channel.

I need more information about this proposal. A simple "they are home Hifi speakers, therefore...," even though that may be the case, is too off the cuff to be satisfying.
Thanks,
Chris

Alex Lancaster
10-23-2003, 03:19 PM
What they are trying to tell You is the L100īs are designed for complete musical range, which varies widely in frequency, instead of a closer range such as voice; the drivers of the L100 are not designed for continuous voice, You will burn them to get enough sound.

For SR get some EON15Pīs, if You sell the rest, You will end up with money.

If You want just voice, E120's with 2416's and 2307 horns, 1,200Hz X-over or so; look for "cabaret series" also.

Alex.

scott fitlin
10-23-2003, 03:28 PM
Voice is very demanding too! You can get your voice to sound very deep through the mic by proximity effect and bottom out the L 100,s woofers more easily than you ever imagined!

Feedback! Open mics feedback! You hear the shrill screech from your speakers one second, and the next second your tweeters and mid drivers are fried! Instantly! Thats why pro applications require feedback eleiminators on mics in addition to EQing! You happen to have a Sabine feedback controller?

The Onkyo reciever is not up to the task of live voice either! Live voice has wide frequency range, and large amplitude transient signals and makes the amp work at continous high levels of output! You can drive the onkyo to twice its rated output, and the Onkyo will heat up, and shut down! Thermal overload! Consumer recievers have NO limiting features, as limeters are never really used in consumer Hi Fi.

Dropping a mic! It happens! Speakers will protest! With the exception of a very few audiophile recordings and test recordings all music is compressed. Your JBL L 100,s were never designed to handle the extrtemely large dynamic range of Live Voice or Live Instruments!

Studio monitor components are quite different than pro drivers for live and sound reinforcement work! Studio monitors use drivers that have very high accuracy! Sound reinforcement and MI drivers are designed to takes very high levels of power and abuse! And how many Studios blow their monitors on a fairly regular basis? Guys doin a mix in studio A drive the shit out of monitors too!

Voice can be very demanding as I said before! Thats why all the pro speaker manufacturers used Phenolic diaphragms in compression drivers for speech application, unlike the Aluminum or Titanium diaphragm in the driver intended for music!

If you dont feel confident in my words call JBL at 1-800-8-JBL-PRO! Ask for Everett Watts and see what he has to say!

rcpmac
10-23-2003, 04:38 PM
Scott, Thanks for the JBL contact.
You guys are likely correct but I'm looking for the definitive word.
I will check with JBL and report back.

Tom Loizeaux
10-23-2003, 05:26 PM
Your idea of using full range home/monitor speakers in a PA application is not all that off-base. The concept of stacking full range speakers has been done with great success (Greatful Dead), but usually the drivers are robust, pro quality units, stacked in large arrays , and driven with tons of power. The things you should probably do to make this work is cut the low frequencies, say below 80 Hz, down significantly, stack at least six L-100s on each side, and use six big, 150 watts per channel stereo amps to drive these.

Tom

mikebake
10-23-2003, 05:48 PM
Six L100's per side would still be less effective and way more expensive than a better pro system/equipment made for the job.

To the original poster; I have quite a bit of experience with both home and pro gear, and attempted things like you are talking about. Go another route.

scott fitlin
10-23-2003, 06:04 PM
Even with mutual coupling the efficiency of the L 100,s and the little integrated amp with 50wpc will be out of gas quickly!

The drivers in the L 100,s are not rugged enough for this kind of use! Especially the mid driver and tweeter units!

Grateful Deads Wall of Sound was amazing! All that top of the line Pro JBL and a million dollars worth of McIntosh! But they had all the neccesary electronics and engineers to run that system properly, and it was JBL Pro drivers, the best of its time, and still good today, too! They blew plenty of speakers, too.

I just dont think the L 100,s are tough enough, nor designed for live application, whether voice or instrument.

Oldmics
10-23-2003, 07:17 PM
That phone call should make Everett"s day!!!!! Oldmics

4313B
10-23-2003, 07:32 PM
No doubt!

scott fitlin
10-23-2003, 07:43 PM
But Everett will give him an answer! The right one. And if asked he will recommend whats right!

TimG
10-23-2003, 09:16 PM
Not yet mentioned, but another reason not to use your L100s for this task is that the early models used minimalist crossovers that will not provide adequate protection for your speakers. With live sound you will easily be clipping your amps and be more likely to burn up your tweeters than you would with a higher powered amp that can better deliver clean high-level transients. The current LSR32 studio monitors use 4th order crossovers. If you don't need the L100s for another room, perhaps you could sell them on ebay and buy some used 2226H, 2426H or 2416H compression driver, and a 2370 horn, or a cheaper clone from PartsExpress, and use the SR4725 crossover, the schematic is available at the prosound archives and I have a copy of the PDF file if you need it. Used Eon 15s, as mentioned above, may also be a less expensive solution. This combination of drivers will be much more robust than your L100s and will also have good resale value if you don't need them in the future. You may still probably want to look for a used pro sound amp. I'm not up on what the current best used pro amps are but QSC and Crown have good reputations for quality construction.

4313B
10-23-2003, 09:19 PM
Yeah, since L100's go for around a grand a pair on eBay :rotfl: you can sell both your pair and buy some pretty damn cool Pro JBL's instead :p

rcpmac
10-23-2003, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by Giskard
Yeah, since L100's go for around a grand a pair on eBay :rotfl: you can sell both your pair and buy some pretty damn cool Pro JBL's instead :p

That's funny.
I'm guessing in fact they might bring $500 or so. One pair stays in my livingroom.

What I can sell for $1000 and more is a pair of perfect Rogers LS3/5a's that I picked uo 3 years ago from the GoodWill thrift store in Seattle for... well you can't imagine how little... I've spent more buying espresso and cocoa's for my family in Starbucks.

Anyway I'm begining to be convinced I shouldn't try this, although your imaginations have gone abit off the mark in picturing the venue. I am talking school gym or church basement.

4313B
10-24-2003, 06:40 AM
"That's funny."

I think we were all a bit surprised when we saw it actually occur first hand :p You should be able to find that thread using the search feature.

"Anyway I'm begining to be convinced I shouldn't try this, although your imaginations have gone abit off the mark in picturing the venue. I am talking school gym or church basement."

Well I will be quite blunt. If I had a pair of L100's and wanted to use them in the situation you have described I would go ahead and do so because, frankly, I couldn't care less if I blew them or not. If, on the other hand, I cared about them at all, I would not put them into such a situation. I've had friends use 4311's in the same fashion and they didn't last very long. I've personally blown my fair share of L100 midrange and high frequency drivers, quite often accidentally.

The guys who have recommended not doing it are all quite experienced. They are not "armchair audiophiles". They are simply telling you that based on their vast personal experiences it would not be a wise idea. If you have some doubt in their recommendations then I would suggest you give it a try anyway. It could be "fun" and experience is a great learning tool.

mikebake
10-24-2003, 07:49 AM
Frankly the venue is irrelevant; everything applies the same. Go the pro gear route and don't look back.

4313B
10-24-2003, 07:56 AM
Yes, you should be able to pick up something like a 4612B or 4612OK off eBay.

scott fitlin
10-24-2003, 09:15 AM
You see Giskard? Read his posts and schematics! You are talking to someone who understands JBL electronics and speakers as well as JBL themselves, sometimes even better than JBL!

Myself personally, I run a VERY LARGE JBL/Altec commercial sound system, and have been doing so for years!

People on this forum have some serious accumulation of experience and knowledge. Many, almost everone here, has alot of real knowledge based on working with, using audio gear! Have you seen Audiobeers refinishing work? As good as factory, if not better! We live JBL audio!

You want to use these Hi Fi speakers in a church or Gymnasium! Do it, and see what happens!


Believe it or not, your L 100,s will fetch a nice price on Ebay, better than what YOU think they will fetch!

As I had told you before, FEEDBACK! FEEDBACK KILLS Mid and tweeter drivers! INSTANTLY! Thats why professionals use feedback controllers. Because by the time you can lower the mic, you already did the damage!

The microphone in my system makes the amps work harder than the music, believe it or not, and your speakers and electronics DO need to be of rugged professional grade to withstand this use! When you clip your amp, your pretty little LEDS on the ONKYO arent telling you anything! So, the voice can actually make your Onkyo deliver TWICE the output its rated to produce, albeit, with high levels of distortion! Distortion also kills sensitive tweeters and midrange drivers!

The crossovers in the L 100,s can be easily burnt out from excessive, continuous voice only use! Pre recorded music does not present your amp or speakers with a continuous signal. A live microphone does! This will cause the components on the crossover board to heat up! same thing applys to the voice coils in your woofers, mid drivers and tweeters. The components in the L 100,s are not designed to handle the heat buildup, and high distortion levels they are going to see when your sons band is SINGING!

However, since you know that we here, are all just home brew audiophiles with VIVID imaginations of speaker holocaust, please go ahead and use these JBL Century L 100,s the way you wish! But it will end up being the Rogers LS3/5A,s in your living room, as your JBL,s will not hold up under the use you are going to put them into!

By the way, next time your at church, take a look and see what amps and speakers the church uses for Voice Only application! You might be surprised to see what they have! Consumer Hi Fi it aint!

Good luck, and my condolences to your poor JBL L 100,s!

rcpmac
10-24-2003, 10:49 AM
Had a chat with Everett this morning.
Well, you guys were absolutely correct about the limitations of the L100 for my application. The conversation was informative and entertaining. Said the tweeters wouldn't take it. And make note of this! Discovered the replacement cone for the early L100 tweeter is no longer available. Time to shop eBay for backups?

He refered me to some technical pages at JBL for other drivers and enclosure options. (you are likely already familar with them) JBL enclosure guide (http://www.jblpro.com/pub/manuals/enclgde.pdf)
He strongly recommended the EON15P series as an ideal solution. (You nailed it Alex,)

Thanks for the prolific responses to my questions. You guys are JBL heads and I dig that. I'll be back with more I'm sure.
Chris

rcpmac
10-24-2003, 11:04 AM
I just caught the on to the some what ahem "agressive tone" of the last couple of posts. Perhaps there was offense taken at my characterization of the groups "vivid imagination".
This characterization was in response to references to Greatfull Dead concert sound systems and the like and was never intended as a pejorative in any manner, but rather to redirect the discussion to the scale of my ACTUAL project. With email and forums , it is often easy to mis-interpret the tone of a comment. I just want to clarify that the intended tone of my posts were and always will be respectfull
Thanks again,
Chris

PS I called Everett back and left the URL of this forum on his voice mail. He was very curious to here that he was referenced here.

rcpmac
10-24-2003, 11:28 AM
One last thing that I haven't mentioned yet and that may explain my incorrigibility.
I had contacted earlier a Seattle JBL dealer and Pro sound specialist. (I'm not naming names). In my conversation with their tech, I was led to believe the use of my proposed system would be perfectly fine. Perhaps they were looking for reconing business.

scott fitlin
10-24-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by rcpmac
One last thing that I haven't mentioned yet and that may explain my incorrigibility.
I had contacted earlier a Seattle JBL dealer and Pro sound specialist. (I'm not naming names). In my conversation with their tech, I was led to believe the use of my proposed system would be perfectly fine. Perhaps they were looking for reconing business. I can get a bit spirited in conversations when I speak!

But, I really am into audio, and I would never tell anyone something I really didnt believe! Or know to be a fact!

NO JBL dealer, or service center, or engineers that I know would have advised you to use the L 100,s for Live PA mics! The people I deal with would have made a recommendation on what you should use, with the hopes of possibly selling you something! Either the person you spoke to in Seattle doesnt know what they are talking about, or they are trying to create repair work for themselves! In my experiences and opinion, a TRUE professional would not tell you its ok to do something he knows is wrong! Rather, all the people I learned from always try to show you whats right! Another thing to point out, is my service people DO NOT want to see the same items coming back time and time again for repairs! The service center I use will CHEW YOU if you continually break something due to incorrect usage!

The EON portable speaker system WILL be able to do what you ask of it, and is a fairly economical solution! Lightweight, perfectly matched system, easy to use, and will give adequate volume levels in the rooms you describe!

When Everett sees who told him to call you he will chuckle! Hes a cool dude though, and will give you the right answers! Thats why I told you to contact him!

Anyway I guess we are all validated now, Welcome to Lansing Heritage!

4313B
10-24-2003, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by rcpmac
PS I called Everett back and left the URL of this forum on his voice mail. He was very curious to here that he was referenced here.
Then he might as well also know just how much we all appreciate his generous help during the many, many years he has been at JBL.
:cheers:

Mr. Widget
10-24-2003, 12:17 PM
Hi rcpmac, take a look at this, these are exactly what is needed and they are self powered and in my opinion pretty cheap.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2567722970&category=47094

4313B
10-24-2003, 12:20 PM
Dang Mr. Widget!
Good find! :)

scott fitlin
10-24-2003, 12:23 PM
Plug and play, and everything you need! Good price, too! Will cost you more in the store!

:cool:

rcpmac
10-24-2003, 12:30 PM
Thanks for the pointer.
That does look like a good deal. I am also looking at a local deal. Private party that upgraded to the G2 series. Anything to avoid paying freight on speakers.

rgrjit8
10-24-2003, 12:55 PM
You know, I knew a guy in the service, that hooked up a bass guitar to a receiver (can't remember what one now. It was in the 70s) and then to a pair of JBL L-110s.
I was absolutely amazed at A) how loud and deep that they would play and, B) that he never blew out those woofers.

Come to think of it, that experience probably had a lot to do with making me a JBL fan. Especially since I saw other guys blowing up their kabuki speakers while attempting to reproduce far less impressive sounds.

This anecdote should not be construed as being in favor of using L-100s for PA duties.
My old Sansui G-9000 had a microphone jack on it. I tried it only ONCE with my L-166s. I recognized it as foolishness immediately. I consider myself lucky not to have damaged anything.

Sorry, I really was trying to make some point here but it looks like I just wanted to hear myself talk.

scott fitlin
10-24-2003, 01:11 PM
Was your freind playing his bass through this set up in his bedroom, where he could hear if he was getting a bit too loud? In a quiet enviroment you will notice alot you wont be able to hear in a large room, full of people, with other instruments and singers at the same time! In a quiet room by yourself, you have no other instruments, singers and ambient noise levels to overcome! Yeah, the 110,s sounded nice, but do the same thing in a 60` x 40` room with a whole band playing, and about 50 people in the room, and then see if you still have clean, loud enough sound!

As for mics, well, voice is mainly concentrated in the upper bass, lower mids, and upper mids! Running a mic through a home speaker system places strenous demands on the midrange section of the speakers, and home Hi Fi speakers are really too delicate for this type of use!

rcpmac
10-24-2003, 01:33 PM
Well, I gather the issue is mostly about the highs and mids and feedback damage. At least I intuit from the range of cone extension experienced when I play less than perfect (warped) vinyl, that the woofer can handle extreme low frequency. On second thought, that LF pulse is only experienced 33 times per minute.

Tom Loizeaux
10-24-2003, 05:10 PM
The intent of my response earlier in this thread was to give this man's question some credability, yet to show that in order for him to be successful in using L-100s, he would need many of them and drive them with lots of power. I knew this was beyond his expectation and probably beyond his access to equipment. Though it could be done, I agree that pro gear designed to function as a PA is a far better bet. I keep a couple of 2-15 bottoms, fitted with JBL K140s, and a pair of Altec 811 w/ 802 drivers, along with a couple of power amps, on stanby just for that occasional band party.
I've become a believer in having gear that can get the job done while working well under it's capability. L-100s and a consumer hifi amp do not fit that approach!
It sounds as if we've given him the responses to lead him toward a successful approach.

Tom

rgrjit8
10-24-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by scott fitlin
Was your freind playing his bass through this set up in his bedroom, where he could hear if he was getting a bit too loud?

Not a bedroom, in military barracks and everybody wanted to kill him. He had the corner cubicle on top of it. No other instruments or vocals, just a guy trying to teach himself to play bass.
I guess I brought this up as a testament to JBL speaker performance. This was abuse by any standard, yet they held up.

scott fitlin
10-25-2003, 09:22 AM
Ill agree with you to a point. Still, a barracks doesnt have the HIGH ambient noise of a bar room with 100 people shoutin and drinkin, and other instruments playing!

Whats loud in a relatively quiet enviroment is not loud at all in a noisy one!

Once you take the same setup onto a stage with other performers and many people in the room, everything changes!

Id be willing to bet, though it did work, your freind DID have to be careful with his volume levels!

Audiobeer
10-25-2003, 09:37 AM
I say let Him try it and get back with us on it....after all it is a pair of L-100s! :biting: :o :bomb:

scott fitlin
10-25-2003, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Giskard
Hey! Guess what I just found out? If a slotted screwdriver properly drove a phillips head screw they would never have invented phillips screwdrivers! Well, yeah, you can use a hammer and literally pound the slotted screwdriver into the phillips head screw but something tells me someone didn't intend for that to be the solution :D You dont say! :spchless:

mikebake
10-25-2003, 10:58 AM
Scott;
I have had different systems in many different rooms/spaces. Often those present when I am doing a sound check will say "gee, I hope it's not that loud during the event"......when the people get there and get to carrying on, we nearly always have to turn it up, sometimes way up, and they never notice.

scott fitlin
10-25-2003, 11:22 AM
And bookshelf Hi Fi speakers will not be able to overcome the ambient noise levels in any situation you just described!

Mike, I remember the First commercial system my father and uncle purchased in 1976 for the NEW disco revolution! 4 beautiful custom made cabinets loaded with double JBL 15,s ported, the small lens horn like you see in the L 300, and 1 slot tweeter in each cabinet! 2 BGW model 500,s for the 15,s one model 200 for the little horns and tweeters!

This system sounded great in the guys showroom, it really did, but when it was installed in our 90 x 50 indoor bumper car ride it didnt do squat! Then when we opened and had people in here it did even less!

They got their money back, and we went back to BIG Horn loaded stuff!

But, I was 14 yrs old and I heard this system play in the guys showroom/factory and it did sound good in there with lots of volume!

Charley Rummel
10-25-2003, 11:39 AM
Our church, before we remodeled in 2000, used a pair of 4333A's in the sanctuary for the PA mains. they were driven by a combination mixer power amp (I forget the brand) that put out 200 watts per channel. We had an additional Mackie mixer for additional input as needed. There was no compression other than what an effects control built into the mixer/amp combo offered. We play contemporary music as well as traditional, and the 4333A's handled the load with ease.

On the other side of the coin (without me having any tech involvement, of course :D ) I've seen a number of hifi speakers get toasted in my day: a pair of L26's used for vocals during a rehersal; an Electrovoice 2-way duplex literally smoking before our eyes when used as a stage monitor; a pair of 4311's getting fried at a party when used for vocals and keybards - the woofers lived through it but not without injury, the mids and highs were dead at the scene; and so forth.

There have usually been two reasons for these occurences: 1) there's an emergency situation with a shortage of resources; 2) there's a wannabe tech generously offering his services who puts together something that looks about right based on what he thinks makes a cool sounding stereo :rolleyes:

Regards

Charley

mikebake
10-25-2003, 11:50 AM
I posted this on the Pi speaker forum about my recent excursion with JBL stuff.........

"On the other extreme, I finally got one of my quad 2226 boxes in action this weekend; (Wayne-o said way back when I got them that they would be candidates for DJ/rental/live bands; I couldn't just turn them loose with some DJ, and the cabs are MDF; not friendly for moving around alot between weight and fragility)For a multitude of reasons (size, need for multiple big power amps, lack of appropriate reason to drag them out) I have never really even fired these boxes up. Time to get an idea what they can do, if even just one of them.
Anyway, an old buddy who DJ's had his rig split up at two venues and felt he needed some extra oomph for a large hall/wedding reception. I've offered for years to loan him some firepower if ever needed.
I first sent over my two 2245H's in 9 ft cabs, then thought better of it. They aren't really for PA use, and the room is 125 by 80 by 35 high. He already had two 18's in folded horns, and some two way 15's/1 inchers on poles. The 2245's weren't going to keep up with his folded horns, and were not up to the abuse, either.
Talked him into using one quad box if I helped load out; bass summed mono, 120hz and down. Loaned him my QSC PLX 2402 setup in parallel mode, clip limiters off, high pass on amp is turned on and set at 30hz. for protection. Two 8 ohm 2226's driven per channel, 4 ohm load per side = 700w per side for the QSC. (side note; the QSC is stable into 2 ohms, done it many times, and produces 1200 per side into 2 ohm; also 2400 bridged mono into 4 ohm; needs good power!!)
This box is a BEAST. First time it has ever really had power to it. Then there was some rap tune called Go Low or something.............DJ has been doing DJ work for 20 years......he calls me on the cell phone babbling about the stage moving and the LF assault. I went out to check it out.....his DJ banner was hanging a foot in front of the quad box. I see the banner being tugged on, assumed that one of the wedding reception brats was messing with it...........discovered that the massive vents were sucking the banner clear in and out of the vent....I shit you not......never seen anything like it. The DJ just stared at it in disbelief. He told me before the gig that he didn't expect to play the system very loudly, etc. Oh yeah?? It was cranking!
I knew that between the amp and the bulletproof nature of the 2226, we were cool. Man, the output was unreal. This is a 103db sensitivity box, sucking up a PLX2402.........okay, it was cooooool.........thank goodness for the BIG room. Next up, we need to try TWO of these boxes, using my qsc PLX 1602 for the other one. Maybe close-couple them for a few more db!!!.
When loafing, the thing sounded great. When called upon, this box really was a monster. (I have now been to the mountain; in fact, I moved the damn mountain home later in an small pickup.........may have to put grills, wheels, and corner protectors on these boxes and get em out more often!!) Moral of the story; the 2226 is a great driver capable of truly prodigous, clean output, especially in multiples. But then you already knew that. "

scott fitlin
10-25-2003, 12:07 PM
It shows why Pros use Pro stuff!

Mike Caldwell
10-25-2003, 12:54 PM
Hello
The little Onkyo amp will be clipping on the first "test one two"
you give into the mic.
If you are driving a amp designed for home use with the output
of a pro or semi pro mixer, even the smallest Mackie it will
very easly overload the input section of the amp causing even more distortion. Amp clipping is one of the biggest factors in blowing speakers of any kind.

The L100's while very good sounding speakers do not have the
throw or "cut" to project the sound into a large room or preformance type of hall.

Mike Caldwell

scott fitlin
10-25-2003, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by mikebake
I posted this on the Pi speaker forum about my recent excursion with JBL stuff.........

"On the other extreme, I finally got one of my quad 2226 boxes in action this weekend; (Wayne-o said way back when I got them that they would be candidates for DJ/rental/live bands; I couldn't just turn them loose with some DJ, and the cabs are MDF; not friendly for moving around alot between weight and fragility)For a multitude of reasons (size, need for multiple big power amps, lack of appropriate reason to drag them out) I have never really even fired these boxes up. Time to get an idea what they can do, if even just one of them.
Anyway, an old buddy who DJ's had his rig split up at two venues and felt he needed some extra oomph for a large hall/wedding reception. I've offered for years to loan him some firepower if ever needed.
I first sent over my two 2245H's in 9 ft cabs, then thought better of it. They aren't really for PA use, and the room is 125 by 80 by 35 high. He already had two 18's in folded horns, and some two way 15's/1 inchers on poles. The 2245's weren't going to keep up with his folded horns, and were not up to the abuse, either.
Talked him into using one quad box if I helped load out; bass summed mono, 120hz and down. Loaned him my QSC PLX 2402 setup in parallel mode, clip limiters off, high pass on amp is turned on and set at 30hz. for protection. Two 8 ohm 2226's driven per channel, 4 ohm load per side = 700w per side for the QSC. (side note; the QSC is stable into 2 ohms, done it many times, and produces 1200 per side into 2 ohm; also 2400 bridged mono into 4 ohm; needs good power!!)
This box is a BEAST. First time it has ever really had power to it. Then there was some rap tune called Go Low or something.............DJ has been doing DJ work for 20 years......he calls me on the cell phone babbling about the stage moving and the LF assault. I went out to check it out.....his DJ banner was hanging a foot in front of the quad box. I see the banner being tugged on, assumed that one of the wedding reception brats was messing with it...........discovered that the massive vents were sucking the banner clear in and out of the vent....I shit you not......never seen anything like it. The DJ just stared at it in disbelief. He told me before the gig that he didn't expect to play the system very loudly, etc. Oh yeah?? It was cranking!
I knew that between the amp and the bulletproof nature of the 2226, we were cool. Man, the output was unreal. This is a 103db sensitivity box, sucking up a PLX2402.........okay, it was cooooool.........thank goodness for the BIG room. Next up, we need to try TWO of these boxes, using my qsc PLX 1602 for the other one. Maybe close-couple them for a few more db!!!.
When loafing, the thing sounded great. When called upon, this box really was a monster. (I have now been to the mountain; in fact, I moved the damn mountain home later in an small pickup.........may have to put grills, wheels, and corner protectors on these boxes and get em out more often!!) Moral of the story; the 2226 is a great driver capable of truly prodigous, clean output, especially in multiples. But then you already knew that. " BTW, next time you do this, since you sum mono, use the two quad boxes coupled together, for the " Tidal Bass " wave!

That will be absolutely phenomenal!

mikebake
10-25-2003, 05:25 PM
Ya know, as soon as the opportunity arises, I will! If the boxes are 103db sensitive now, and I close couple, what will this yield?

scott fitlin
10-25-2003, 05:43 PM
This will yeild the biggest KICK. In a club, playing Hip Hop or dance music they will love this!

The wavefront coming off those two cabinets coupled will be MASSIVE!

mikebake
10-25-2003, 08:30 PM
Seems I've seen that close coupling of the cabs adds up to 6db........................thats quite a bit!!!
Will let you know when we pull it off!

GordonW
10-25-2003, 08:42 PM
The EON portable speaker system WILL be able to do what you ask of it, and is a fairly economical solution! Lightweight, perfectly matched system, easy to use, and will give adequate volume levels in the rooms you describe!



Call me the resident curmudgeon, but I'm not really a fan of the Eon powered stuff...

I'd be fine with it, but for ONE thing- the fact that the woofer basket is MADE INTO the front panel of the box. This makes it virtually IMPOSSIBLE (or at the least, a major pain in the rear exit chute) for a reconer to rebuild the woofer, should it get hosed (and with a DJ rig, it's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN this will happen- bad cable, power glitch, amp problem, etc).

Most any other JBL pro cabinet, sure, I'm all in favor of it, naturally. But making it virtually un-servicable in the field like the Eon... well, that really takes the appeal away from me...

Regards,
Gordon.

scott fitlin
10-25-2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by GordonW
Call me the resident curmudgeon, but I'm not really a fan of the Eon powered stuff...

I'd be fine with it, but for ONE thing- the fact that the woofer basket is MADE INTO the front panel of the box. This makes it virtually IMPOSSIBLE (or at the least, a major pain in the rear exit chute) for a reconer to rebuild the woofer, should it get hosed (and with a DJ rig, it's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN this will happen- bad cable, power glitch, amp problem, etc).

Most any other JBL pro cabinet, sure, I'm all in favor of it, naturally. But making it virtually un-servicable in the field like the Eon... well, that really takes the appeal away from me...

Regards,
Gordon. However, it offers the most economical solution to the problem!

The EON self powered portable system will work, and is easy to use, and its lightweight!

Yeah, great cabinets loaded with E120,s and a good horn/compression driver with amps and such will work much better! But this is also alot more money, weight, and electronics!

For voice use, as long as they dont severely overdrive the Eons, they will last, and perform adequately for rcpmac,s needs!

DJing was not a use that was mentioned in rcpmac,s posts so Im assuming they arent going to be used for this, although Im sure JBL would say they are suitable for DJ use as well!

As for its inserviceability, well, if they dont break em, they wont have to fix em, or buy new ones!


The Eon is a very cost effective beginners setup thats easy to use! And Ill definitely say the Eons will outlive the L 100,s for the specified application!

GordonW
10-26-2003, 07:14 PM
I'd agree with you, about the cost-effectiveness of the solution, and that they would outlive the L100s, without a doubt. However, I've seen enough people bring EON's into the local PA repair shop (the shop owners are friends of mine) with blown woofers, only to be turned away and told that the only solution is to send the whole thing to a JBL service center, due to the integrated woofer. And these are people trying, in many cases, to make their living, or at least part of it, gigging night-by-night and/or weekend-by-weekend with their rigs. Not a great thing, to tell a working musician or other performer, that his system is gonna be out of commission for as long as a COUPLE WEEKS, possibly, while the cabinet/woofer is being fixed... as opposed to cabinets with removable woofers- the shop can just swap in a "loaner", or even better, an already-rebuilt woofer of the same type (they keep stocks of various reconed drivers, especially to have them for swap-outs), where in many cases, the performer is right back out there with a working system, sometimes the same day...

Really, it depends on how critical the situation is, whether down-time is gonna hurt IF something eventually goes out in the speaker. For many people, that's the deal-breaker, tho...

Regards,
Gordon.

scott fitlin
10-26-2003, 07:53 PM
I do really agree with you, Gordon. But I am just making an observation, that rcpmac will ONLY be using these for light duty voice work!

As for the fact they are not easily serviceable, it is something to consider if they were going to be used for more aggressive sound work.

I can also say a little bit about them in the field as well. As a DJ system they definitely lack alot! Sonically, as well as reliability! But, I know several nightclubs that use these in the DJ booth as monitors. In this application they live! They really do. I suppose that having a huge system on the dancefloor helps, as the monitors are for the DJ to hear himself in the mix, but they hold up fairly well in this use.

If rcpmac doesnt torture them, they will work as a beginners system!

I can offer many solutions for many different purposes including this, but none as economical! And thats the whole point. Here you have a guy who wanted to use bookshelf speakers for a PA application, and probably doesnt want to go out and spend a couple of grand on gear! Lets be realistic here, you go out and source 4 JBL E120,s, 2 horns with comp drivers, and cabinets and electronics, what wouuld this cost, even buying used gear? Or you go to a local musical instrument store that also sells used PA gear and pick up two larger JBL SR or MR series speakers, and amps and electronics, and how much does this cost?

Does rcpmac want a substantially better system? How much does he wish to spend? Is his sons band in it for the long haul?

What can you offer for the price that will be as easy to use and remain within affordabilty?

mikebake
10-27-2003, 06:44 AM
I'm a mild fan of the Eons, but they are not made for/recommended for DJ use. In any event, you can pick up all manner of two-way cabs with a 15 and horn, both new and used, for little money. If it's JBL pro gear or equivalent, then it ain't gonna be cheap.
Obviously I am partial to JBL, but this is a guy who can buy some cheap cabs with cast baskets from some place like Parts Express and be happy.......

rcpmac
10-27-2003, 02:07 PM
Wow great debate!! It reflects the depth of knowlege of the group and the many possibilities available. I just feel smart having found you guys!

LOTS more clarifications and information from me.

Most important, the groups name is "SUGAR HIGH".

COMMITTMENT
My son is almost 12. Is he in it for the long haul? I have to assume yes. He plays daily, writes songs ( I think they only cover 2 songs by other groups, the rest are theirs). And they have had 1 gig already that tested their commitment to preparing and making it happen, (mine too as the amature sound guy and roadie).

USE;
Falls into 2 categories.
PRACTICE once or twice a week in the drummer's parents living room. Their 2 sons are both drummers how's that for dedication to family! Equipment needs to be haulled there and back. Amps, guitar, mixer gigbag and the PA.

GIGS Well there has been one so far. I imagine a couple more this year and then monthly depending. Venues will be as described. cafeteria, Gym, church basement...and likely some parties in kids homes and yards. An outdoor gig is likely the toughest venue as far as raw watts demand.

Budget is the driving force in our decision. My son needs to pay for most of this himself. I am donating the L-100's or their value (I think... I keep telling myself to save them for the 5.1 system, remember, I have 4) I am donating my research, acquire, and build energies. I can build ANYTHING.


CONFESSIONS

Before the premier appearance of "SUGAR HIGH", we bought a 100w 15" Altec Lansing mounted in a 3.75 cuft ported enclosure built by the seller to the specs of the JBL enclosure handbook in 1979 http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/plans/1975-kit-plans/page10.jpg Well, almost... one dimension is long, making the actual volume 3.94cf. there are 2 instead of 3- 4 dia." ports X 8" long PVC tuning tubes. (the spec. calls for 3 ports) BTW; I have the handbook and original dimensioned drawings.

We set this up at the venue (3000sf) with 2 voice mics. through a yamaha mixer and the ONKYO amp using one 50w channel. Sounded good! the band did a practice for a couple of hours when the PA went down. It didn't take long to figure out the speaker was blown. buzz buzz... Likely it was under driven? equally likely caused by a short found in the speaker patch cord that came with it!

One hour till show time and no PA!!!! I ran and got a pair the JBL100's What else could I do?!

I set the JBL's at corner stage stacked and powered them in stereo 50w each. They filled the space and kepted up with the guitar amps which were on 11! I passed out yellow earplugs! I held my breath and the concert went on without problem...well guitar straps kept slipping off and and surprise, one of those $7 xlr mic plugs was faulty. But that stuff was fixed with back up and duct tape. There was a small audience say 50 people.

So the JBL's did survive the test. I'm not however saying they are generally up to the task and I may have got off easy this time. I suspect the old Onkyo is a sleeper and the Yamaha mixer which is about 7 years old was originally a pro level $1400 piece that we picked up on ebay for $65.

Back to now.
We opened the cab. The driver wasn't Altec but an Eminence guitar driver. I shopped around and picked up a replacement which was a clean unlabled 15" Altec prosound driver. I spoke with Steve Upchurch who identified it as a driver taken from a factory system, thus unpainted and unlabled. He said it is a #3154. I can't find ANY reference to that driver ANYWHERE on the web. I will have to call him again and find out if there is a "retail" version with a different mod.#.
I have also acquired a model 22A Peavey Horn. Here is the closest spec I could locate for that http://www.usspeaker.com/peavey%2022t-1.htm . The volume of the horn is roughly .065cf

I want to plug these units into that enclosure and use a simple 2 way crossover ala RadioCrap... http://www.radioshack.ca/estore/Product.aspx?language=en-CA&product=4001296&category=Raw+Speakers+Acc.&catalog=RadioShack the manual page is here http://support.radioshack.com/support_audio/doc65/65789.pdf .

I have read of tuning proceedures for enclosures and would need to review these. Am I on the right track here?

I have a lead on a BGW 6000 Pro amp 100w per channel / 200 mono for $125.
Also I have read good things about this amp relabeled by RS. http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F008%5F004%5F000&product%5Fid=32%2D2004

YET ANYOTHER IDEA. My neighbor has old advent boxes with surround rot. Yank those woofers and stick $40 PA / bass woofers and $25 horns in them. They would be practice speakers, (leave them at the practice venue,) and performance monitors.

Hold everything! Just talked to a used equip shop to see if they still had a pair of horns for the advent boxes. He does and also has 2 EV 12" midrange packs. They are older units in trapozoid boxes with stand mounts. $90 for both with a guarantee. This may be the ticket for the portable units. Just add some horns.
OK thats it for now. As you can see we are looking at lots of options here.

Thanks for your contributions,
Chris

rcpmac
10-28-2003, 11:33 AM
My kid's band. A pic rescued from under exposure so it's very grainy
http://community.webshots.com/photo/97069847/97070745LSKNad

rcpmac
10-28-2003, 11:35 AM
Perhaps the pic is too large?
Here is the URL
SUGAR HIGH (http://community.webshots.com/photo/97069847/97070745LSKNad)

rcpmac
10-28-2003, 11:40 AM
THE 15" ALTEC DRIVER. MOD# 3154? Can anyone confirm this?


http://community.webshots.com/s/image6/6/86/71/97068671KJhOtK_ph.jpg http://community.webshots.com/s/image6/6/85/90/97068590NekBFp_ph.jpg

speakerdave
10-28-2003, 06:51 PM
Well, if these other guys are like me, the sheer cuteness of this band and their chosen name has stunned them into a weepy nostalgic silence remembering the not-so-long-ago days when our own sons were dreaming those dreams. I was my son's roadie too for awhile hauling him and his guitar and amp and 4-track and sleeping bag and notebook full of songs up the valley where a friend of his had the run of a large space in the upstairs of a barn, set up as a studio. The three or four of them would "jam" and try out each other's songs and record them and listen and dream.

I'm even remembering my own first venture into rock and roll with a forty dollar Sears Roebuck mail away archtop guitar--the world's worst guitar, but it didn't diminish the dreams. Ah, me! Us human bein's!

All I can say is good luck and God bless you all.

David