4430s – in need of some hints for proper use

[Fangio]

Here is a pair of speakers that I thought I'd never buy. Buttcheeks... :rolleyes: oh no, low WAF guaranteed. Now they came across locally, placed in the mid of an audio pro store, where I was buying jacks. I said those look familiar to me, the store staff gave me an audition, saying I was only the 3rd customer who noticed them as what they are, and I ended up thinking, once in my life I should have had these. Yesterday I met the seller at the store, he said he has only a small appartment. These were kicked out from the main studio of RTL here in my town, 3 weeks ago during a cleanout. And as he wanted only the half of what 4430s are usually going for at ebay, I couldn't resist anymore. There is no proof so far for this sellers story about their history, but even if in $$ that was far away from a grand. So I'm the 3rd owner now, and the journey goes on. BTW, the seller told me he had bought a package of the 4430s, this famous huge vintage studer/revox tape machine (forgot it's name, the grey one, you all know it) and some studio micros all together for 1.000€ from RTL, what a steal :thmbsup: – so you can see my luck is relative, don't want to brag here about ripping someone off, it was still a good deal for him too, we were both satisfied.

The cabs were hanging from the ceiling of the studio, dunno how as they don't have any holes. That kept the wood ok over all, not what I would call beaten up by hard studio use, ok some marks here and there, one back corner is not so nice, but hey – look, unbelievable, they had stickers applied to them! The final proof why RTL rightly has the image of a kindergarten in germany..

Never had that, how do the woodworking pro's remove the paper/adhesive w/o damaging the veneer. With heat, I was told, but hmmmm..? Is a hairdryer a good idea?

The drivers seem ok to me. 2235H surrounds are new, not sure if reconed or just refoamed. But regarding the glue around the dustcaps (déja vu!!), it looks like a full reconing job from Harman Germany. I had no opportunity to talk to the technicans at RTL so far, and maybe never will. So any diagnose by pics is welcome, let me know if I should inspect the backsides of the cones, or what else to rank them better.

Will not talk much about how they sound, until I had more time to listen. OK, the 2235s, together with the obviously perfect cab-tuning – are a dream, simply stunning thats what they are. One thing I can say is, for the first time I have the wish to biamp speakers. The 2344s seem a bit chary to me. Maybe because I've listened to that bright guitar PA now for a while.. :blink:? Before I don't have excluded any other possible weaks in the chain, I don't feel to have the right to judge those. When I'm A/B'ing them to the 075s, these are brighter and clearer, and more present. Anyway the JBL gods seem to be with me this year, they will stay for a while, and all advice to get the best out of them is appreciated. I'll share more pics when the light is better, if you like.

[Fangio]

Well, the 3 stickers are gone, with the help of some heat and terpentine. The wood grain looks nice, will continue with that recipe of 3/4 linseed oil 1/4 terpentine mixture, before taking better pics. :) Rainy weekend here.

[johnaec]

'Looks like a fantastic set of speakers - congrats!

John

[mech986]

Fangio,

TREMENDOUS!!! Great Score and both of you (buyer and seller) were happy!!

Please send some pics of the woofers when you have a chance. These should look great once you're finished.

Regards,

Bart

[Titanium Dome]

Well found, my friend. Unexpected acquisitions are often the sweetest.

:bouncy:

[Fangio]

Thank you, gents. :)

[Fangio]

Still cleaning & listening, and still no clue why the 2425H/2344 sound a bit shy, A/B'ed to my other JBLs. Have to dig through more 4430 threads, and especially Zilchs gorgeous Q&D ones, to find hints about their diaphragmas, and how tired ones are noticable. Their screws look like they haven't been dismantled ever. :hmm:

[oznob]

Hey Fangio, great find and a great speaker! Did you try twisting the crap out of the L-pads? May be some dirt and/or corrosion and they are making poor contact? I had to do that with mine at Zilch's suggestion and they woke right up! You may have to use some electronic contact cleaner and lube, pot spray, on them if twisting them doesn't work, provided that's the problem. Looks like by the connections on the 2235's that you have a later pair than mine. Mine are from June/July of 1986. Just getting the foam surrounds done now. Hey, they lasted nearly 20 years! If you have them on heavy carpet, I would suggest using some sturdy cone spikes. I did that to mine and it tightened everything up. I was skeptical at first, but it really helped. The cones I'm using are 1.5" tall which gets them off the floor a bit also. Hey, good luck and I hope you have as much fun with yours as I'm having with mine!:applaud:

[doodlebug]

That's great, Fangio. Judging from the pictures, I'd say the in-house techs knew what they were doing on the foam installation.

I, too, have managed to get some UREI monitors via local sources that came out of some of the studios here in the SF Bay area and have found that the quality of maintenance on them was quite good.

On whether you can find the guys who actually did that maintenance on yours, I'd doubt it. The local scene here is that they've been let go - made redundant - and are doing freelance work with studios rather than being on staff, according to the ones I've met.

My perception is that the number of big-time studios, along with far-field monitors and large space recording environments are moving quickly to near-field mixdown rooms with more actual recordings made in smaller venues.

This could justify why I can pick up a set of UREI 813s for $400 - of course, I've not yet figured out how I'll stuff those 11 cu. ft. boxes into my office:blink: . I'll try, though......

I'm sure you'll love the 4430s. BTW, swap out the caps in the crossover for more enjoyment.

Cheers,

David

[Rolf]

Great Fangio! Another pair of vintage JBL's in the hands of true JBL lover.:applaud: :D

[Guido]

Looks not like a professional reconing.
Professionals use the black moyen for the dustcap. Your' s is glued with bostic.
But do not worry. It makes no difference technically. It's just cosmetic. Everything looks original.
Congratulations! :applaud:

[grumpy]

The cabs were hanging from the ceiling of the studio, dunno how as they don't have any holes. Likely hung upside down.

You might want to just listen to them after cleaning the L-pads and before jumping in
with modifications... their character can grow on you after awhile.

Congrats on your purchase :D -grumpy

[Chas]

Also...flip the biamp switch back and forth a few times. Mine had some corrosion when I fired them up first time.

[Fangio]

:)
doodlebug, thanks, and congratulations on your ureis, pretty rare animals.. I'd love to hear more of those, had the chance only once so far. Yes the foam was applied correctly, fortunately – had enough trouble with this already with my L166s. Never again.

oznob, grumpy: thanks for chiming in here. L-Pads work fine, no crackling at all as one would think, if they're dusty/dirty.

chas: ditto thanks, did as suggested. The 2425s turn on/off just normal, no poor contact.

Over all, the 4430s seem technically in much better condition, as they looked at first sight. And that cosmetical shape has improved a lot, over the weekend. It was not just a bit oiling, actually I had almost to wash them :D, and to remove two dozen scratches, resp. to paint them carefully darker with, hmm kinda special patina color mixture from my furniture restoring neighbour. The first sessions oiling was nearly completely absorbed, I guess they have never been oiled before. From the 2nd run they started to shine again, and the wood got its grain back. Now the 3rd is applied, and geez they look better and better, not finished yet though. Unfortunately I don't have many pics from the shape I got them in, but I'll keep new pics coming, here is at least an appetizer. The first shows the 1st run with one side untreated, second shows the 2nd run on the other top side.

[Fangio]

Looks not like a professional reconing.
Professionals use the black moyen for the dustcap.
Thanks Guido, for finding the fly in the ointment. :rolleyes: :applaud:
Called RTL today, and after a long seesaw I could talk to a guy from the techs, remembering the reconing of these. They have in fact very experienced people who did that inhouse, and used original JBL kits of course (the guy at the phone was pretty piqued, a JBL connoisseur too), ordered from Audio Pro Heilbronn (official JBL distributor, and neighbour of Harman down there). These kits come always with a tube of that brown glue, I was told since long. I have a 2213H that looks the same, with bill from APH.

But its not that important, thanks for congrats. ;)

[Anthony L100]

Hi Fangio, congrats on your unexpected aquisition:D. It sounds like a bargain! My experience with the HF was similar, present, but not obvious. I have now investigated furthur having realised that one 2425 was down on output. I removed the 2425s and checked the diaphrams, one is the correct D8R2425 with a measured DCR of 3.1 ohms but the other measured 8.9 ohms, so I assume it has been replaced with D16R2425! I will initially replace just the incorrect diaphram and compare, then replace the original if there is a difference. It's easy enough to remove the back covers to have a look without disturbing anything, so may be worth your while having a look as the next step.

[Zilch]

D8R has green dot at + terminal of diaphragm, D16R has red. 4430 should be green.

[Just to confirm.... :thmbsup: ]

[Fangio]

Oops. Had to get back my inch socket wrench set first. Turned out they are 2426Hs.
Reading from other threads, that is not unconditionallly a bad thing. ;) Later 4430 model, titanium dias. No red or green dots. They should go higher. H seems to indicate 8 ohms here, while J would be 16 ohms? Are these the original dias?
Without taking pics and watching them on the screen, I never would have seen that there is a line stamped to those: EC 12.1989.

[Fangio]

Today I got a visitor (NRT, do you remember? :)), and we had a loong session biamping these 4430s, using a tube preamp, and two 2x100W stereo blocks, one for each speaker. That changed the whole situation, I had to realize a lot about my setup. I felt I had listened to other speakers before. Will report more before long.

[Fangio]

OK, here we go. The 4430s are fine, more about the cabs later. I've met a collector recently, who sells homemade tubeamps, an does tuning for all kind of highend gear. He was so friendly to visit me, and with a mild smiling for my vintage amp, he brought some better ones for me to consider, and to checkout/challenge the 4430s seriously.

It's all about biamping. Biamping is a MUST, it seems. Driven seperately, these drivers really woke up. We were checking out several configurations, the results were absolutely satisfying. Here are some session pics, and from the setup that made the 4430s really sing. Another smile he had for the crossovers :D, and used his own, in his words 'quick&dirty' ones for the 2426s. It was like pulling a heavy curtain aside from them.

[Fangio]

Hope you find them presentable.

[Zilch]

Yes, INDEED!! :thmbsup:

[leif]

Very very beatutiful. Congrats!

[grumpy]

Nice. :applaud:

The pair I obtained, and very much enjoy hearing music through, did not have such an easy life. It is interesting to hear your bi-amping experience... understanding the setup specifics would make it even more so. Thanks for sharing!

-grumpy

[Fangio]

Yes, INDEED!! :thmbsup: From da masta of two-ways, a big compliment. :bouncy:

Nice. :applaud:

The pair I obtained, and very much enjoy hearing music through, did not have such an easy life. It is interesting to hear your bi-amping experience... understanding the setup specifics would make it even more so. Thanks for sharing!
Grumpy, I'm sorry no measurement equipment was used, I can tell only what I heard. For the preamp a Le Tube preamp was in the chain, very warm and clear. Came with a build-in phono preamp and a external power supply unit that had some homemade improvements in wiring, afaik. We also splitted the amp of the 4400 and tried the preamp from it, to our surprise it wasn't much worse, Marantz is wellknown for their warm sounding amps though. More improvement was taken from the power amps, 2 solid state stereo blocks were used, 2x100W per unit, which allowed a separate volume tuning for the woofer and the horn at each speaker. Very comfortable for biamping. I was considering to buy these, no showroom units, but they provided effortless some improvement for the lows, excellent dry and a still bit deeper, and SPL – just WOW.

Sure, most did the xovers for the MF/HF section, of course I would share the specs of the components too.;) From what I've seen in other 4430 threads, there seems to be a common opinion were the weaknesses are (the caps), and that has been improved by several others already. I'm not very experienced when it comes to xover details. OTOH the friendly supporter is very familiar with JBL since 30 years, although he did not reinvent the wheel I'd assume, I will ask and try to get the specs, and post them here as well, for comparison.

[readswift]

wow great tale here. Cannot really wait to cross my 44's in the digital realm ( hahahaha cant even think of else ), how your amp chain looks like today ? Im totally lost in this area (well ok not that much), converters are my cup of tea diy-wise, and I beleive the difference in D to A topologies is rather obvious compared to amplification, this is why decent dig. XO is quite demanding . Currently I have in mind: remote controlled Burr Brown PGA2310 vollume attenuator IC ( point the damn remote controller to big Nixie numbers floating mid-air) followed by FET monoblox ( really simple and quite cheap, hungarian breed). I hope those 4430's are actual to this day, right ?

[Fangio]

Hi there readswift, welcome

well this thread is somewhat older.. no, regrettably they had to go later in 2006 – http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10350


They are also in the gallery (http://www.audioheritage.org/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=408&cat=500&ppuser=2770). I already had that other project running, for 4-ways.

The sale contributed considerably though ;) made some component imports from overseas affordable. And actually helped extending the amp chain, for bi-amping these – added a tube preamp back then, and an essentially revised Citation 16, dedicated to the 15"s later.