12" Driver interaction at angles?

[Don Mascali]

I'm ready to cut wood but want to get some opinions on how these drivers will play together.

I have two E120H 12" drivers and want to put them in two boxes with 15 deg adjoining walls so that they intersect at a 30 deg angle (splayed out). One will point straight forward and the other will toe in to center at 30 deg. Their edges will be 3 1/2" in from the edge of each box, about 7" apart.

The purpose behind this is to match the dispersion pattern of the 2346 Everest horns for the front of my HT system. I am going to use 2405H slots mounted next to the horn ala Everest and two 2226H drivers below the 12"s in the same configuration as the 12"s.

Should I take some medication to clear up my thinking or am I on track?:blink:

I would love to hear input from any of our esteemed members.

TIA,

Don M

[Zilch]

Someone recently posted some Japanese monitors aligned similarly. Was that you?

Let me see if I bookmarked it....

Edit: Kinoshita, per Earl K

http://www.reyaudio.com/warp-e.html

That'd be two drivers each side, tho.

As you come off axis of the one woofer, you're come on axis of the other, similar to 2346. Note in the bottom right install they've got them aligned as you suggest, so it likely works.

I just angle single woofers under the horn in 30°. Consider the woofer beamwidth at the crossover frequency. I don't think you need the one aiming straight forward, but it sure looks cool! :p

[Been meaning to try it myself, actually....]

A sketch would help to be sure we're understanding your design.

[Mike Caldwell]

Hello
There would be no real benefit to splaying the 2226's as low frequencies are pretty much omni directional any way. Where are you planning to crossover into the the 12's and out of the 12's into the horns. At the lower frequencies the 12's will be a much wider pattern the the 2346 horns. Is this planned to be a center channel speaker or the a pair of speakers for front left right. The asymmetrical horn would not be the best choice for a center channel speaker.

Mike Caldwell

[Don Mascali]

Zilch;
No not me, I didn't see that thread

Mike C.
They will be left and right fronts, set close to the outer walls. I had 2344A's and wall reflections were a problem even heavily toed in.

The 2226 will be in the same box with the E120s in a sealed chamber.

X-over is 24db LR active @ 300 and any where from 850 to 1200 depending on how they sound together... The horns where used @ 850 in the 4660a cabinets they came from.

[Don Mascali]

I looked at those monitors and my thinking is pretty much the same.
The horn projects at 30 deg off axis, and the center with some mutual coupling reinforcement of the two MFs should give you a lobe at that angle. (I'm guessing at the true angle on the 12"s though). I can adjust the tweeter angle and the horn too. The Everest brochure is pretty specific about aiming everything.

I point the 2346 straight ahead and the 30 deg points aim at my prefered position while still giving the imaging they are noted for at the extremes...

I have been using the horns for awhile and I'm ready to do the big boxes now.

[Robh3606]

Let me get this straight.

You want to what??:blink:

You are trying to match the 2346, you have a 2226 in an Everest like configuration???

Where do the 12's come in?? As midranges????? On firing straight out one angled??????

I think the 12's are going to screw you up. They set the angle on the E-145 and 2405 to match the directivity of the 2346. If you have both splayed out the it won't work IMHO

Zilch those monitors were toed in not out. I think the threads in Marketplace.

I love the internet. Where the hell is the bar napkin???

Man am I confused.

Rob:applaud:

[Zilch]

A pair of asymmetrical horns can obviate the necessity for a center, but for HT, a matched center would likely do a better job.

For two-channel music, however, the asymmetric defined directivity "locked image" is an effect I've very much grown to appreciate, as have you, apparently.

I haven't tried adding the tweeters for precedence compensation yet, in part because I don't understand it. I'm also leary of the combing they might generate.

As to adding the midbass, I just don't think it's necessary. Those big horns will play quite low, and 2226H woofers alone can easily meet them around 800 Hz. Getting more drivers to mesh properly seems, well, "challenging."

[JuniorJBL]

Let me get this straight.

You want to what??:blink:

Where the hell is the bar napkin???



Rob:applaud:

I used it for a coster when we were done!:D

[grumpy]

This I gotta -see- :D

I'd also think a single angled 12"-er per side would be enough (and not having one face
forward could help to keep it from spraying the sidewalls with as much mid-spray)...
and since you're using an electronic crossover, sensitivity matching is probably less
of an issue, ... but what do I know.

Maybe crossfire the 12"-ers (instead of having them do the Marty Feldman) and point the pair to room center (as a thought). I don't expect sideways dual midrange drivers will help your imaging in any case. With a center channel for HT, this may be moot.

Sounds like a fun project :)

-grumpy

(I did try the 2226/2346/2405 thing and it wasn't magic for me... sitting on a few E145's to try in my copious free time...
they're not very comfortable)

[Don Mascali]

I have a MTM horizontal center (2123J and 2342/2416)

Most of the listening I do is to blues and rock guitar and I like the impact of the 2 E120s per side in the fudamental frequencies. I run them IB (open back) and even on orchestral strings they sound effortless. The 2 2226Hs per side go from 80 to 300hz with 2-4546C subs centered between the stacks. The horns seem to have problems at the frquencies approaching cuttoff so I don't push them very low at all. I use the slots to provide some "air" to avoid the roll off on the top. So now we have a 5 way system.:D I know what Zilch thinks about that.:banghead:

I fully understand the problems with multiple drivers and time alignment and use electronic means to align them and set levels. I have been using something simular for a while and while many people cringe I don't hear it as a problem myself.

Too much is just right, isn't it:D

[Don Mascali]

Grumpy;
I use the 2 E120s per side because of the open back thing. they don't handle a lot of power that way.

[grumpy]

cool. sort of an evil-twin (think Fender) arrangement :D
I was just ruminating over the likelyhood of trying to match the 2346
in directional characteristics.

-grumpy

[Don Mascali]

That Evil Twin thing is what got me thinking originaly, What was I trying to reproduce? Sounded like a good idea at the time.


It looks like I didn't look as close as I should to the pictures, I just read the blurb.

I seem to remember reading that it was bad practice to cross drivers like that. Interlacing ripples like in pond water interfering with each other.

I could do that with the inside drivers facing straight ahead and the outside ones turned in @ 30 deg?

[Robh3606]

I used it for a coster when we were done!:D

Damn!, And all that hard work :cheers:



How high are you going to run the 120's??? Take a look at the polars and what the horns are doing between 1K to 8K. The radiation pattern changes to help counter the proximity effect as you move off center. You want to stay away from that region with other drivers.

Rob:)

[Zilch]

It's hard to believe that they don't interact.

And the higher the frequency, the worse it becomes, no?

I'd have to do a polar waterfall on CLIO to document it.

[Not THIS week.... :p ]


I could do that with the inside drivers facing straight ahead and the outside ones turned in @ 30 deg?

Yes, but I just don't see the necessity or desireability of having the paired drivers there when the singles will work just fine, most likely....


So now we have a 5 way system.:D

I know what Zilch thinks about that.:banghead: I think I need to go lay down for a bit. I'm feeling somewhat queezy from the contemplation, even.... :blink:

[Don Mascali]

Thanks to all for the comments and opinions.:applaud:

I have decided to turn the MF and LMF drivers simular to these;

http://www.reyaudio.com/warp-e.html

That is oposite to my original thinking. But, I can always change it around later. Thats the real DIY thing, even if it sucks, you learn a bunch.

Man I love this site. Where else can you get an exchange of ideas like this.

I'll post some pics as I go and any one ever in the area (No. Virginia, DC suburban) Is welcome to stop in and critique the whole mess.

Thanks again,

Don M

[Mike Caldwell]

I would have to agree that a single E120 would be better to avoid the interaction/ comb filtering that you would get with two of them side by side. If you feel that you need the extra midrange out that two the drivers would have I would suggest have them one on top of the other vertical. That would couple together better in the horizontal field with far less comb filtering. The comb filtering will still be there but since our ears our on the sides of our head and more sensitive to listening in a horizontal field and not in a vertical field the interaction between them will be far less noticed...unless you turn your head sideways and listen to you speakers. Also when speakers are in a vertical column the horizontal pattern tends to widen while the vertical pattern will get tighter.
That same basic concept is why line arrays work well.
I would cross out of the 2226's and into the E120 or E120's around 200hz.

Mike Caldwell

[Don Mascali]

Mike said:
"more sensitive to listening in a horizontal field and not in a vertical field the interaction between them will be far less noticed... "


I agree, But looking at the diagrams in that article The two lobe patterns would appear to combine when they are angled inwards. I used to use the E120s in a verticle MTM sort of configuration. I suppose I could put the cones above and below the 2346 horn...:hmm:

The E120 HP is set for 300hz now. I have been waiting to hear the finished product before writing them in stone. You are probably right on at 200hz.

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Thanks to all for the comments and opinions.:applaud:

I have decided to turn the MF and LMF drivers simular to these;

http://www.reyaudio.com/warp-e.html

Don M

Don, I don't have the technical background that many other members do but let me caution you. I almost bought a pair of Warp-7's in Vegas a couple of years ago. Thank God I drove up to hear them first. Although impressive in terms of efficiency they sounded more like a PA speaker than a studio monitor. Imaging was excellent but they had what I can only describe as a hollow sound to them. They wanted 4500 for them. Just my 2 cents.

Ken

[Zilch]

I suppose I could put the cones above and below the 2346 horn...:hmm: Put a pair of 120's above the horn, and a pair of 2226 below it, like the Warps, maybe. ;)


...unless you turn your head sideways and listen to you speakers.That'd be me, lyin' on the couch there:

"No, Hon, I'm just testin' for power compression and comb filteriing...." :snore:

:p

[Don Mascali]

What about 1 of each above and below. 2226 facing forward and E120 on the outside angled in at 30 deg? That would keep the reflection off the walls and the acoustic centers of the drivers close to the horn center. Same pattern as the horn on the mid and effectively a MTM arangement.

I can't get that caveat about crossing drivers settled in my head. I seem to remember it was bad practice but It would be pretty easy to do it in that configuration.

[Mike Caldwell]

The
Horn in the middle between the two E120 would work very well.
I built some mid- high PA cabinets that use that same concept only they
have a 10 inch speakers with two small one inch horns in between.
The horns are B&C ME45's with JBL 2425h drivers, the 10's are B&C 10MD26. They give you a very single point source kind of sound.

Mike Caldwell